And they still got trounced!

If the enonomy is so bad, where did they get the money from?

And whilst we're talking about VAT, you lot do know which feckers brought that in don't you?

You will have to explain that one very carefully to me.

 

Very carefully indeed because it unless you know something I don't, I see it to be the biggest load of big hairy bollocks you've ever ever ever said.

 

 

I thought MB had already done that one....

The Govt get 50p duty a litre at the pumps. That's what we pay. And then there's VAt on the whole price.

 

Levies on oil brought through a port will be paid by the oil company, but in effect will more than likely be passed on to us at the pumps.

 

Yup; any tax in fundamental form represents a transfer from individuals to government, regardless of where it is levied (which perhaps has distributional effects, but that's pretty debatable too). Under Labour we've had a massive increase in government spending, and whilst some of it has come from irresponsible borrowing, the biggest componant is fiscal andincome tax national insurance rises; so they're very much responsible for a lot of people feeling the pinch right now. Of course the people complaing and moving to the Tories are mainly the lower middle classes on decent but not ridiculous salaries, who no longer feel inclined to pay these higher charges with little to show for it.

 

The new deal is a classic case in point; Labour trumpets it as a wonderful idea, but the overall cost per job created which lasted more than 6 months, even assuming that no one who got a job through the new deal would have got a job without it, was significantly higher than the wages paid, and the demographics targetted have seen no long run change in employment levels.

And whilst we're talking about VAT, you lot do know which feckers brought that in don't you?

 

 

Yup, the same party which reduced state spending from over 45% to under 40%. You can accuse tories of cutting "services", but moaning that they're high tax is pushing it. VAT is a weakly regressive tax, but far less distortionary than income tax.

Yup; any tax in fundamental form represents a transfer from individuals to government, regardless of where it is levied (which perhaps has distributional effects, but that's pretty debatable too). Under Labour we've had a massive increase in government spending, and whilst some of it has come from irresponsible borrowing, the biggest componant is fiscal andincome tax national insurance rises; so they're very much responsible for a lot of people feeling the pinch right now. Of course the people complaing and moving to the Tories are mainly the lower middle classes on decent but not ridiculous salaries, who no longer feel inclined to pay these higher charges with little to show for it.

 

The new deal is a classic case in point; Labour trumpets it as a wonderful idea, but the overall cost per job created which lasted more than 6 months, even assuming that no one who got a job through the new deal would have got a job without it, was significantly higher than the wages paid, and the demographics targetted have seen no long run change in employment levels.

 

 

What are you using as your benchmark figure for employment change?

You will have to explain that one very carefully to me.

 

Very carefully indeed because it unless you know something I don't, I see it to be the biggest load of big hairy bollocks you've ever ever ever said.

 

Actually, that was about 2 weeks ago when he said that the Burmese government were letting all aid agencies into their country, worded as if he was actually in on the negotiations (as usual), when it was clear they weren't.

 

Crawley is the biggest cock on here, and that takes some doing. Walter Mitty political expert.

What are you using as your benchmark figure for employment change?

 

 

ONS employment rate

 

1989 74.6%

2001 74.6%

2006 74.6%

 

Of course, officially declared unemployment has declined as the replacement ratio has increased, but the proportion of people of working age getting out of bed in the morning and earning a living is flat. I suppose the increase in people on disability benefit is to be expected; modern medicine is getting worse and worse at curing people...

Actually, that was about 2 weeks ago when he said that the Burmese government were letting all aid agencies into their country, worded as if he was actually in on the negotiations (as usual), when it was clear they weren't.

 

Crawley is the biggest cock on here, and that takes some doing. Walter Mitty political expert.

 

 

True that was a bit presumptious. Sorry to have annoyed you Carlos. Never said I ws an expert just disagreed with some points - I also never said I have definitive answers to anything, certainly not to politics.

 

makes me laugh that the right wing leaning members of this board can spout spurious toss and its passed over, challange it with different views and it gets picked apart.

 

Now, carry on....

I certainly wasn't as clear and concise! But this is what worries me, people making judgements without the facts - I'm critical of the G'vt for many things but voters en masse are like headless chickens jumping from one assumption to the next. the Tories are not promising tax cuts yet - I'll be surprised if they do even in their manifesto. I still believe they will get in because this country is ripe for the next political cycle . Just be careful what you wish (or vote) for.

 

 

I refer back to a post above...

 

Labour got in purely because voters were sick of a Tory government and a large proportion of those voters had never experienced a Labour government...me included...

 

However I feel the cycle is about to happen again...

 

oil which has a knock on effect on everything..food, holidays etc...is certainly hitting the pocket probably harder for a lot more than me...

 

I must also stress that under labour I haven't done to bad...within the area that I work, building houses for Social Landlords the sector has boomed...whether a change of government would be so proactive remains to be seen...

 

Iraq, afghanistan, immigration though are areas that just don't sit comfortably...

I thought MB had already done that one....

 

In my haste I didnt read the whole thread, you should be a spin doctor thingy, clever little word you inserted there to throw us off.

 

So, fuel duty, VAT, shat, call it what you want....

 

The one pound twenty something I paid before for a litre of finest red diesel earlier cost me someting like 85p last year.

 

For that same litre of red, is Gordon the Incompetant Spendthrift getting any more money today than he was 6 months ago.

 

Simple yes or no answer please.

I refer back to a post above...

 

Labour got in purely because voters were sick of a Tory government and a large proportion of those voters had never experienced a Labour government...me included...

 

However I feel the cycle is about to happen again...

 

oil which has a knock on effect on everything..food, holidays etc...is certainly hitting the pocket probably harder for a lot more than me...

 

I must also stress that under labour I haven't done to bad...within the area that I work, building houses for Social Landlords the sector has boomed...whether a change of government would be so proactive remains to be seen...

 

Iraq, afghanistan, immigration though are areas that just don't sit comfortably...

 

both heavily backed by all sides at the time, it's fair to say that the tories would've reacted the same to the information given to them by those supposedly in the know.

 

there needs to be a massive excersice in cutting the numbers of admin staff (middle managers etc) in local government, the MOD and NHS as thats where most of the money ends up being spent any investment comes from an extra kitty just so Martin the middle manager can drive to and from meetings about meetings in his nice rover 75

and they would still sit uncomfortably with me if the tories had got us into this mess...

Hopefully with many people now struggling to continue paying these petrol prices we will see an upsurge in them using public transport services like the bus, rail, metrolink, spacehopper, pigeon..

 

..and thus clearing them off the roads leaving them free for me to drive on.

If the Tories are prepared to stop all the spongers coming in then they'll get my vote....otherwise as someone as said, they all pee in the same pot.

 

I'll abstain.

Hopefully with many people now struggling to continue paying these petrol prices we will see an upsurge in them using public transport services like the bus, rail, metrolink, spacehopper, pigeon..

 

..and thus clearing them off the roads leaving them free for me to drive on.

 

Aye, the more peasants off the road, the better.

Aye, the more nissan micra drivers off the road, the better.

 

 

I agree

ONS employment rate

 

1989 74.6%

2001 74.6%

2006 74.6%

 

Of course, officially declared unemployment has declined as the replacement ratio has increased, but the proportion of people of working age getting out of bed in the morning and earning a living is flat. I suppose the increase in people on disability benefit is to be expected; modern medicine is getting worse and worse at curing people...

 

And those on 'sick' get paid more than the unemployed

The economic mess we are in now is not down to the price of a barrel of oil as the government would have us believe. There are many factors, one being the drop in the value of the pound against all major currencies apart from the dollar. Nearly 20% down against the euro in the last 8 months. As most of what we consume is imported, its no wonder that we, as a nation are suffering more than others.

Read this thread with great interest. No surprise that I generally agree with Maaarsh, Bobcat and Smiffs. Predictable that mick would leap to Crawleys aid. Real politics is reflected in the actions on here. The right leaning tend to have their own ideas and are prepared to strive as an individual - the left seek the support of 'brothers'. Safety in numbers.

 

In the entire thread, the one outstanding truth is that Socialist governments invariably fook up economies by doling out money to every glassback, immigrant and other oddball dole bludger and the Conservative side gets a spell to put everything back on an even keel.

This is why the duopoly works so well. One sides extremes are reined in when the other lot gets its term. Much as I lean to the right, I have to acknowledge that we need spells of the reds to remind us of why we need the blues.

Read this thread with great interest. No surprise that I generally agree with Maaarsh, Bobcat and Smiffs. Predictable that mick would leap to Crawleys aid. Real politics is reflected in the actions on here. The right leaning tend to have their own ideas and are prepared to strive as an individual - the left seek the support of 'brothers'. Safety in numbers.

 

In the entire thread, the one outstanding truth is that Socialist governments invariably fook up economies by doling out money to every glassback, immigrant and other oddball dole bludger and the Conservative side gets a spell to put everything back on an even keel.

This is why the duopoly works so well. One sides extremes are reined in when the other lot gets its term. Much as I lean to the right, I have to acknowledge that we need spells of the reds to remind us of why we need the blues.

 

Own ideas? Seems to be most people here share the same point of view.

In my haste I didnt read the whole thread, you should be a spin doctor thingy, clever little word you inserted there to throw us off.

 

So, fuel duty, VAT, shat, call it what you want....

 

The one pound twenty something I paid before for a litre of finest red diesel earlier cost me someting like 85p last year.

 

For that same litre of red, is Gordon the Incompetant Spendthrift getting any more money today than he was 6 months ago.

 

Simple yes or no answer please.

really paying ?1.20 for red? where do you get it from? thats extortionate for red mate, know from previous posts you run your own show as such, i know this isnt an advertisment board but if you are paying that and it in your financial intrest to get in cheaper pm me and i will be able sort that out i would imagine, what quantities do you buy in for that price?

Own ideas? Seems to be most people here share the same point of view.

 

Because they haven't backup you up on your mini-crusade, QED? Most people find policitics tedious so don't get involved, most people are sensible enough not get embroiled in a pointless debate they cannot win or maybe, like in my case, are closet lefties who are embarrassed of it because of people like you. There are countless reasons not to get involved.

I blame Screaming Lord Sutch.

If he'd hung around he'd be in charge now and we'd be loving it, loving it, loving it.

Read this thread with great interest. No surprise that I generally agree with Maaarsh, Bobcat and Smiffs. Predictable that mick would leap to Crawleys aid. Real politics is reflected in the actions on here. The right leaning tend to have their own ideas and are prepared to strive as an individual - the left seek the support of 'brothers'. Safety in numbers.

 

In the entire thread, the one outstanding truth is that Socialist governments invariably fook up economies by doling out money to every glassback, immigrant and other oddball dole bludger and the Conservative side gets a spell to put everything back on an even keel.

This is why the duopoly works so well. One sides extremes are reined in when the other lot gets its term. Much as I lean to the right, I have to acknowledge that we need spells of the reds to remind us of why we need the blues.

 

 

Bollox - leaping to nobody's aid. Just pointed out the facts as they are.

In my haste I didnt read the whole thread, you should be a spin doctor thingy, clever little word you inserted there to throw us off.

 

So, fuel duty, VAT, shat, call it what you want....

 

The one pound twenty something I paid before for a litre of finest red diesel earlier cost me someting like 85p last year.

 

For that same litre of red, is Gordon the Incompetant Spendthrift getting any more money today than he was 6 months ago.

 

Simple yes or no answer please.

 

 

I don't think anyone as answered your question directly (although others have prior to you asking it) -but the answer is technically yes.

 

In very simple terms the cost of a litre of petrol is made up of four parts -

 

1 - (The Oil Company) - The amount the petrol company is selling the petrol for as it enters the country.

2 - (The Petrol Station) - The amount the 'petrol station' adds on - for the cost of transporting the petrol from the oil refinery to the petrol station - and also the cost of running the petrol station itself.

3 - (The Government - direct tax) - The Governments petrol duty (tax) per litre

4 - (The Government - indirect tax) - and the VAT that is added to the total of the other three elements.

 

These four parts added together is the amount we pay at the pumps.

 

What as been happening is that the first part of the cost (The Oil Companies) have increased their charges a great deal recently.

 

The 'petrol station' costs and the Government's duty (Government - direct tax) have however remained the same.

 

Because the petrol company element as increased - it as also meant that VAT element (Government - indirect tax) as increased as well - and so technically the Government is receiving more money due to the petrol price increase.

 

Put simply the Oil Companies have put their price up and we are paying more VAT because of it.

 

However to be fair to the Government - a proposed 2p per litre increase duty which should have come into effect in March (and which would have increased the Government direct tax element - as well as VAT) as been delayed until October 2008.

 

I do hope this explanation helps.

 

Sluffy

Former Public Servant (socialist) turned entrepreneur (capitalist).