I don't know if anyone on here, i assume so, went to watch us play Chester City away (last match at Sealand Road for us) when Phil Neal was in charge. He played in defence and was subject to some awful abuse from the Wanderers away section. 'Phil Ne-al, your're a wanker, you're a wanker' was the cry. Phil just shrugged it off in the post match interviews saying it was 'water off a duck's back'. Not once did he call the crowd pathetic or make sneering comments about the fans. A class guy who laid the foundations for the Rioch era.

You're a businessman Zoz - if a single client of yours brings in about 70% of your income and all the rest combined brings in 30% - which customer would you do your utmost to keep - even if it meant pissing off some of the others?

 

Don't take this advice Zoz. Remember the 'eggs in basket' principle. If you piss all your smaller clients off and your larger one goes tits up then so do you. Treat everyone fairly and try to spread your business amongst as many as you can. I've seen too many businesses go down the pan just looking after one major customer.

I don't know if anyone on here, i assume so, went to watch us play Chester City away (last match at Sealand Road for us) when Phil Neal was in charge. He played in defence and was subject to some awful abuse from the Wanderers away section. 'Phil Ne-al, your're a wanker, you're a wanker' was the cry. Phil just shrugged it off in the post match interviews saying it was 'water off a duck's back'. Not once did he call the crowd pathetic or make sneering comments about the fans. A class guy who laid the foundations for the Rioch era.

 

I remember an interview with Bruce Rioch once after a nil-nil draw against er... lets say Crystal Palace. He came out afterwards and said 'it's not a bad point against a very decent team.'

 

I also remember an interview with Roy McFarland after we beat Boca Juniors 13-6 in Santiago. He came out afterwards and said 'Blimey it's warm here.'

 

Oh, and who can forget the interview with Sam Allardyce when he was at the Blue John Mines in Derbyshire?? 'It's dark in there,' he said 'I was glad to see daylight I can tell you.

 

Do you remember eh? eh?

Edited May 23, 200917 yr by Spider

I,ve met Phil a couple of times. A genuinely nice guy who did his best as player/manager and brought through some decent players. Still speaks well of his time at Bolton.

Don't take this advice Zoz. Remember the 'eggs in basket' principle. If you piss all your smaller clients off and your larger one goes tits up then so do you. Treat everyone fairly and try to spread your business amongst as many as you can. I've seen too many businesses go down the pan just looking after one major customer.

 

Well in a perfect world that is what everyone would do H but the simple fact is that BWFC is already totally reliant on the Sky money - it simply cannot pay its bills without it.

 

If 20,000 fans going to the Reebok brings in about a third of the clubs revenue - then to replace the loss of Sky money (if we were to get relegated) our crowd would have to increase to 60,000 to compensate - that simply is not going to happen.

 

If the club got relegated there would almost certainly be a clause in the players contracts that their wages would be reduced. That together with the need to sell players to balance the books would see most if not all our best players leave. We would then be in the Championship, with money problems, so no strengthening of the team and with our best players gone.

 

We would not be competitive in the Championship - and do you really think we could maintain even the 20,000 supporters we have, being a selling club, struggling at the wrong end of the Championship playing teams like Doncaster, Barnsley and Peterborough?

Well in a perfect world that is what everyone would do H but the simple fact is that BWFC is already totally reliant on the Sky money - it simply cannot pay its bills without it.

 

If 20,000 fans going to the Reebok brings in about a third of the clubs revenue - then to replace the loss of Sky money (if we were to get relegated) our crowd would have to increase to 60,000 to compensate - that simply is not going to happen.

 

If the club got relegated there would almost certainly be a clause in the players contracts that their wages would be reduced. That together with the need to sell players to balance the books would see most if not all our best players leave. We would then be in the Championship, with money problems, so no strengthening of the team and with our best players gone.

 

We would not be competitive in the Championship - and do you really think we could maintain even the 20,000 supporters we have, being a selling club, struggling at the wrong end of the Championship playing teams like Doncaster, Barnsley and Peterborough?

 

The parachute payments would mean that we would be competive for the first two years at least. They dwarf the income of most of the teams in the Championship. If the players have the right contracts i.e. reduced pay in a lower league then I would not predict the doom and gloom of your post. Apart from a couple of players the others would only attract the attention of Premier League relegation fodder at best.

Edited May 23, 200917 yr by wanderer28

The parachute payments would mean that we would be competive for the first two years at least. They dwarf the income of most of the teams in the Championship. If the players have the right contracts i.e. reduced pay in a lower league then I would not predict the doom and gloom of your post. Apart from a couple of players the others would only attract the attention of Premier League relegation fodder at best.

 

If it as simple as that the three relegated teams from the Premiership with the parachute payments should always bounce straight back.

 

Perhaps you might like to answer why then the following clubs relegated who we have played in the Premiership in the last nine seasons are no longer there?

 

Reading,

Derby,

Crystal Palace,

Watford,

Norwich,

Southampton,

Leeds,

Leicester,

Charlton,

Ipswich,

and for now Sheffield United.

If it as simple as that the three relegated teams from the Premiership with the parachute payments should always bounce straight back.

 

Perhaps you might like to answer why then the following clubs relegated who we have played in the Premiership in the last nine seasons are no longer there?

 

Reading,

Derby,

Crystal Palace,

Watford,

Norwich,

Southampton,

Leeds,

Leicester,

Charlton,

Ipswich,

and for now Sheffield United.

 

He didn't say we would be certain to get promoted the first season,his words were "We would be competitive for the first two years at least".Bearing in mind the parachute payments i agree with his opinion.

 

The Championship is actually a competitive division where most teams are capable of getting promoted.Unlike the Premier Leeague where it is impossible to finish in the top 4 without money,success or failure comes down to the standard of manager outside the Prem.

Smallish clubs such as Reading,Watford,Swindon,Crystal Palace,Hull and this season Burnley have shown that good managers can get success in the Championship at the expense of better supported and on the face of it wealthier clubs.

It's a different story when these sides get into the Prem and the managers are asked to perform minor miracles to survive.

Of the teams you have listed 4 of them are now in the 3rd tier i would argue that their failure is down to bad management on the football side more than them being unable to compete financially with clubs like Doncaster,Barnsley,Plymouth,Hull,Burnley or Blackpool.

If our long term future hinges on staying in the Premier league then we're fucked - because sooner or later we're going down. I guess this was behind Gartside's reasoning for the new system.

Back to H's argument - he's right, the key is to keep your other customers on board and thus soften the inevitable blow. When (not if, when) we go down we need to be in the best shape to keep the fanbase buoyant - the cheap kids STs play a major part in this. And HG is absolutely right - success at the next level down aint all down to money and fan numbers. A decent managerial team and club structure pays dividends.

He didn't say we would be certain to get promoted the first season,his words were "We would be competitive for the first two years at least".Bearing in mind the parachute payments i agree with his opinion.

 

The Championship is actually a competitive division where most teams are capable of getting promoted.Unlike the Premier Leeague where it is impossible to finish in the top 4 without money,success or failure comes down to the standard of manager outside the Prem.

Smallish clubs such as Reading,Watford,Swindon,Crystal Palace,Hull and this season Burnley have shown that good managers can get success in the Championship at the expense of better supported and on the face of it wealthier clubs.

It's a different story when these sides get into the Prem and the managers are asked to perform minor miracles to survive.

Of the teams you have listed 4 of them are now in the 3rd tier i would argue that their failure is down to bad management on the football side more than them being unable to compete financially with clubs like Doncaster,Barnsley,Plymouth,Hull,Burnley or Blackpool.

We are one of the clubs that cannot compete financially with the giants of the Premier league and we have somehow finished out of the bottom 3. This post highlights how good a manager Gary Megson is.

Edited May 23, 200917 yr by Zozzy

Nobody was screwing a living from BWFC in those days. I am lifeline member from those days when "lifeline" actually meant "what it said on the can". Despite his faults I remember a 20 odd match unbeaten run until we got demolished at Mansfield away, and I was there. He did sow the seeds of Rioch's success: Stubbs, McAteer, Walker (on Loan). One season had over 60 games and a full strength team for each one. I wouldn't swap it for the Premier/European years but I was in love with football then and I am not now.

 

 

HERE HERE!!

If it as simple as that the three relegated teams from the Premiership with the parachute payments should always bounce straight back.

 

Perhaps you might like to answer why then the following clubs relegated who we have played in the Premiership in the last nine seasons are no longer there?

 

Reading,

Derby,

Crystal Palace,

Watford,

Norwich,

Southampton,

Leeds,

Leicester,

Charlton,

Ipswich,

and for now Sheffield United.

 

And most of those clubs have been promoted again to the Premier League in the last nine years! Leeds are the exception because of gross financial mismanagement e.g. securitisation i.e. obtaining a loan by mortgaging future season ticket sales.

Well in a perfect world that is what everyone would do H but the simple fact is that BWFC is already totally reliant on the Sky money - it simply cannot pay its bills without it.

 

All clubs, even those in the Champions League, are totally reliant on TV revenues.

 

Looking at the teams coming up and having watched a bit of the Championship this season, probably there is only one relegation place to fill. That's what the bookies are saying.

 

Contrary to the comments in the press, I never thought that we would be near relegation this season. We had 37 points after the Boro' game with 7 games to go. Someone will probably stay up with 36 points.

 

I hope that we can get a few good young players in, increase the squad size, and have a go at one of the Cups next season.

He didn't say we would be certain to get promoted the first season,his words were "We would be competitive for the first two years at least".Bearing in mind the parachute payments i agree with his opinion.

 

The Championship is actually a competitive division where most teams are capable of getting promoted.Unlike the Premier Leeague where it is impossible to finish in the top 4 without money,success or failure comes down to the standard of manager outside the Prem.

Smallish clubs such as Reading,Watford,Swindon,Crystal Palace,Hull and this season Burnley have shown that good managers can get success in the Championship at the expense of better supported and on the face of it wealthier clubs.

It's a different story when these sides get into the Prem and the managers are asked to perform minor miracles to survive.

Of the teams you have listed 4 of them are now in the 3rd tier i would argue that their failure is down to bad management on the football side more than them being unable to compete financially with clubs like Doncaster,Barnsley,Plymouth,Hull,Burnley or Blackpool.

 

Not so Holly.

 

The big difference between the clubs such as Southampton, Norwich, Charlton, Leeds etc and the likes of Doncaster, Barnsley, Plymouth, etc, is the vast amount of debt they are saddled with when falling out of the Premiership.

 

The parachute payment is not intended as a means by which they can start off in the Championship as a club pushing for promotion but rather a financial bail out to soften the blow of losing so much revenue from the Premiership.

 

Indeed one could argue that smaller clubs with less expenditure are better suited to getting promoted into the Premiership because they don't have the debt burden of some of the bigger clubs who have 'lived the dream' and who are now paying the price.

 

Leeds, Sheffield Wednesday, Southampton, Nottingham Forrest, Leicester, Derby, etc, are all big clubs who have found life tough away from the Premiership millions, whilst clubs such as Stoke, Portsmouth, Hull, Blackburn, Wigan and ourselves are smaller clubs who have made it to the top and others such as Reading, Burnley and Preston have been knocking on the door.

 

If people really think that a business would treat a single income stream of 70% of its turnover just the same as 20,000 other customers who are bringing in combined the other 30% then they are living in cloud cook coo land!

 

As for then risking the 70% income stream to appease the other 20,000 customers by moving away from 'safety first' football then expecting them to remain loyal if we got relegated and struggled in lower divisions is naive in the extreme.

And most of those clubs have been promoted again to the Premier League in the last nine years! Leeds are the exception because of gross financial mismanagement e.g. securitisation i.e. obtaining a loan by mortgaging future season ticket sales.

 

But the initial problem was they got relegated. Everything else became a problem because of that.

All clubs, even those in the Champions League, are totally reliant on TV revenues.

 

Looking at the teams coming up and having watched a bit of the Championship this season, probably there is only one relegation place to fill. That's what the bookies are saying.

 

Contrary to the comments in the press, I never thought that we would be near relegation this season. We had 37 points after the Boro' game with 7 games to go. Someone will probably stay up with 36 points.

 

I hope that we can get a few good young players in, increase the squad size, and have a go at one of the Cups next season.

 

The average Sky income for Premiership clubs is about ?45 million

 

The average Sky income for a Championship club is around ?1 million

And most of those clubs have been promoted again to the Premier League in the last nine years! Leeds are the exception because of gross financial mismanagement e.g. securitisation i.e. obtaining a loan by mortgaging future season ticket sales.

 

Try again Wander28,

 

Reading, Crystal Palace, Southampton, Charlton, Ipswich, Leeds, Watford, Norwich, (and for now Sheffield United) have not be promoted back into the Premiership since Bolton got promoted for the 2001/2 season.

If people really think that a business would treat a single income stream of 70% of its turnover just the same as 20,000 other customers who are bringing in combined the other 30% then they are living in cloud cook coo land!

How can you compare how the Club treats Sky TV to how they treat the Fans ? They have done a lot for the fans in recent times to keep their custom.

They don't have to do anything for Sky to increase the 70% income from them. They just abide by the contract agreement to let them broadcast the games etc.

 

p.s. passmosster meant Champions League teams i.e. European Cup , not Championship

But the initial problem was they got relegated. Everything else became a problem because of that.

 

I think you'll that not qualifying for the Champions League was their initial problem.

Try again Wander28,

 

Reading, Crystal Palace, Southampton, Charlton, Ipswich, Leeds, Watford, Norwich, (and for now Sheffield United) have not be promoted back into the Premiership since Bolton got promoted for the 2001/2 season.

 

Sorry, I must of been dreaming when we played Watford and Sheffield United. Wolves and Birmingham must be looking forward to their first season in the Prem.

How can you compare how the Club treats Sky TV to how they treat the Fans ? They have done a lot for the fans in recent times to keep their custom.

They don't have to do anything for Sky to increase the 70% income from them. They just abide by the contract agreement to let them broadcast the games etc.

 

p.s. passmosster meant Champions League teams i.e. European Cup , not Championship

 

Well what I meant was that to retain the 70% income from Sky they have to stay in the Premiership - the way they are doing this - no cup runs, defensive first policy, not trying too hard against the big four - is directly upsetting a large element of the 20,000 fan base.

 

So the club can continue doing what it as been doing (and in terms of meeting its objective quite successfully too) and piss off and potentially lose a proportion of the 20,000 or change the way it plays, try for cup runs, try against the big four and please the 20,000 but potentially come unstuck and get relegated and thereby lose its Premiership place and the Sky's 70% funding?

 

The club is obviously looking to find some middle ground. Whilst it has not yet compromised on the way the football is played to maintain Premiership survival, it as tried to improve things at the margins by dropping Season Ticket prices, introduce the Fan zone, introduce the singing stand, free travel to away matches etc.

 

Unfortunately most don't seem to think such benefits offset the poor entertainment value of the games they see.

 

No businessman would risk losing a 70% revenue stream from one customer particularly if their business is already reliant on that funding already.

 

Hopefully stage three of the clubs playing development plan will lead to some key player accusations that will help us push further away from relegation and hopefully allow us to play a little bit more attractively next season - but make no mistake Premiership survival is fundamental to the club and everything else will be sacrificed to maintain it.

Sorry, I must of been dreaming when we played Watford and Sheffield United. Wolves and Birmingham must be looking forward to their first season in the Prem.

 

Obviously facts don't seem to bother you!

 

Sheffield United were promoted to the Premiership for the 2006/7 season in which they were relegated - they have not been back in the Premiership since to date.

 

Watford beat us in the Play offs in 1998/9 and played in the Premiership the following season in which they were relegated. We were promoted the following season and returned to start our current run in the Premier League at the start of the 2001/2 season. In 2005/6 Watford where promoted to the Premier for the 2006/7 season and played us there for the first time. They were relegated at the end of that season and have not been back since.

 

As for Wolves or Birmingham I've never even mentioned them as although technically they do fit into the criteria I stated - I left them out because they will be back next season - Sheffield still have to win at Wembley to get promoted.

 

If it as simple as that the three relegated teams from the Premiership with the parachute payments should always bounce straight back.

 

Perhaps you might like to answer why then the following clubs relegated who we have played in the Premiership in the last nine seasons are no longer there?

 

Reading,

Derby,

Crystal Palace,

Watford,

Norwich,

Southampton,

Leeds,

Leicester,

Charlton,

Ipswich,

and for now Sheffield United.

Edited May 23, 200917 yr by Sluffy

Obviously facts don't seem to bother you!

 

Sheffield United were promoted to the Premiership for the 2006/7 season in which they were relegated - they have not been back in the Premiership since to date.

 

Watford beat us in the Play offs in 1998/9 and played in the Premiership the following season in which they were relegated. We were promoted the following season and returned to start our current run in the Premier League at the start of the 2001/2 season. In 2005/6 Watford where promoted to the Premier for the 2006/7 season and played us there for the first time. They were relegated at the end of that season and have not been back since.

 

As for Wolves or Birmingham I've never even mentioned them as they didn't fit into the criteria I stated -

 

I don't buy your general argument that relegation would affect BWFC more than any other club that it happens to. I'm sure the chairman etc. have got a plan in place for when it happens. Yes there are a number of Ex-Prem clubs that have struggled but of the promoted clubs there are usually a couple that have been there before.

Well what I meant was that to retain the 70% income from Sky they have to stay in the Premiership

Oh I see what you mean now I agree with this.

 

I do however disagree with you when you say that we didn't try against the Big Four. We tried and we lost.

And we put a full strength side out in the FA Cup match this year for that matter.

I don't buy your general argument that relegation would affect BWFC more than any other club that it happens to. I'm sure the chairman etc. have got a plan in place for when it happens. Yes there are a number of Ex-Prem clubs that have struggled but of the promoted clubs there are usually a couple that have been there before.

 

Then you are not living in the real world, I agree with Sluffy if we go down then you can kiss the club you now know goodbye we will be in the shit up to our ears and sinking fast

Then you are not living in the real world, I agree with Sluffy if we go down then you can kiss the club you now know goodbye we will be in the shit up to our ears and sinking fast

 

The world I live in is one in which BWFC went from the top flight to Division 4 and back again whilst nearly going bankrupt in the process. The last time we got relegated from the Prem we had to sell off a lot of players and the parachute payments had ran out by the time we got back but we did it.

Edited May 23, 200917 yr by wanderer28