January 15, 20188 yr You take things very literally. Zico - That's the point she is making in the article; but yeah, she is a bit round the houses with it. She's a French, female actress, what do you expect I apologise for reading the words you write and interpreting them accurately. Also, the French actress has now retracted and apologised for what she said.
January 15, 20188 yr not quite: "I fraternally salute all the victims of these hideous acts who might have felt assaulted by the letter published in Le Monde. It is to them and them alone that I offer my apologies," Ms Deneuve also said that there was "nothing in the letter" to Le Monde that said "anything good about harassment, otherwise I wouldn't have signed it".
January 15, 20188 yr I'm just amused at you feeling uncomfortable about doing something, but wishing you could do it anyway. If you feel uncomfortable, is that not an indication that something isn't right about it? TBF, I feel uncomfortable reading any of your posts. All quesy like. I now know what it is. Thanks.
January 15, 20188 yr I apologise for reading the words you write and interpreting them accurately. Also, the French actress has now retracted and apologised for what she said. What Zico said - but even if she did, it would likely be because we live in a time where having an opinion seems to be outlawed; unless it's the right one, of course - and folk seem to need protection (or an apology for) from any view that is different to theirs. aka mard arses Not sure I like where that would end up, personally. The fact she even has to say there's nothing good about harassment says it all - I mean who read that and thought 'she clearly enjoys sexual harassment and thinks it's OK!' ? It's like Wanderersways - "I'm not a nazi, I'm not a nazi, I'm not a nazi . . " Edited January 15, 20188 yr by madthatter
January 15, 20188 yr TBF, I feel uncomfortable reading any of your posts. All quesy like. I now know what it is. Thanks. Don't then.
January 17, 20188 yr What Zico said - but even if she did, it would likely be because we live in a time where having an opinion seems to be outlawed; unless it's the right one, of course - and folk seem to need protection (or an apology for) from any view that is different to theirs. aka mard arses Not sure I like where that would end up, personally. The fact she even has to say there's nothing good about harassment says it all - I mean who read that and thought 'she clearly enjoys sexual harassment and thinks it's OK!' ? It's like Wanderersways - "I'm not a nazi, I'm not a nazi, I'm not a nazi . . " Having an opinion clearly isn’t outlawed, changing a patriarchal society so that it doesn’t naturally benefit white middle class men is something that needs addressing. Perhaps you just have an unfortunate relationship with the written word, or that arguing your standpoint isn’t your forte but either way the complexities regarding innate sexism in society obviously isn’t in your comfort zone. It’s not shutting you down, it’s just simplistic options to complex problems doesn’t help. Mind you, it’s a football forum so that fact that this is a discussion is progress in itself, so crack on! Edited January 17, 20188 yr by Not in Crawley
January 17, 20188 yr Having an opinion clearly isn’t outlawed, changing a patriarchal society so that it doesn’t naturally benefit white middle class men is something that needs addressing. Perhaps you just have an unfortunate relationship with the written word, or that arguing your standpoint isn’t your forte but either way the complexities regarding innate sexism in society obviously isn’t in your comfort zone. It’s not shutting you down, it’s just simplistic options to complex problems doesn’t help. Mind you, it’s a football forum so that fact that this is a discussion is progress in itself, so crack on! Morning I think several posts on this thread would suggest I can argue my viewpoint fairly well - you, again, are backing up my point with that post. My opinions are fluid and will change accordingly. I used to hold views similar to how I perceive yours being. Life, experience etc has taught me that they were too simplistic for a complex world. "changing a patriarchal society so that it doesn’t naturally benefit white middle class men is something that needs addressing." That view, imo, is dated and out of touch. Or at least, not the same issue it was twenty odd years ago.
January 17, 20188 yr Morning I think several posts on this thread would suggest I can argue my viewpoint fairly well - you, again, are backing up my point with that post. My opinions are fluid and will change accordingly. I used to hold views similar to how I perceive yours being. Life, experience etc has taught me that they were too simplistic for a complex world. "changing a patriarchal society so that it doesn’t naturally benefit white middle class men is something that needs addressing." That view, imo, is dated and out of touch. Or at least, not the same issue it was twenty odd years ago. If you think that view is outdated then you clearly are missing the point of this whole debate, which is probably why folk are picking apart your posts.
January 17, 20188 yr If you think that view is outdated then you clearly are missing the point of this whole debate, which is probably why folk are picking apart your posts. Really? Only you by the looks of it and not doing the best job of it. Anyway . . . The view I highlighted (of yours) is very narrow and foots the blame of inequality at the hands of middle class white men, as you put it. That is exceedingly simplistic, reductionist and a little bit racialist and sexist in my view. Do I believe sexism exists - aye. Is it as big a social issue as it was 20 + years ago, no. It's getting better all the time . . . na na nana na na na na . . . Crawley - answer me if you think she has a point in her article rather than side step and make this about a wider issue.
January 17, 20188 yr At the end of the day we used to know where we stood, if a bird used to leave grey in her hair and have it all messed up like Robert Smith we'd know to leave her alone and not harass her, similarly if one cropped her hair and wore big dangly earrings and Su Pollard glasses we'd know to steer clear...If a girl wilfully put on four stone above her ideal weight and dressed entirely in black topped off with cherry red bovver boots it'd be a clear signal to men "Please leave me alone". The problem is these days women get tarted up then complain when we pay them compliments for doing so; wolf whistles, elephant impressions, phwoaars are all taboo these days, like some imaginary blurred line has been crossed. Women are complicit in this fuzzy shambles too, they should state their intentions more clearly, like in the olden days - tone it down a bit. Finally, I bet if it was someone they swoon over doing the harassing, that mumbling actor who played Charles Manson and was in 'Peaky Blinders' for example, they change their tune, but when it's Greasy Tony from sales, oh no - harrasment, sack him.
January 17, 20188 yr society is complicit in this fuzzy shambles, what is happening is a lot of people, who previously didn’t have a voice to say this is unacceptable, are now speaking. Mad, I’m sorry again it’s difficult to see where you are coming from, the power is with white middle class men and this shift (100 years in the making) will affect those in that bracket who previously by dint of colour of skin, sex and previlged of birth had an easier path to jobs and money. Talent notwithstanding. Sexism is not just at the foot of middle class white men but those are the people still in charge, and still in charge of the discourse. I, for one, am very happy that this is no being discussed and challenged openly away from just academic pontification.
January 17, 20188 yr I also write this as a middle class white man who clearly benefits from this imbalance, talent clearly notwithstanding!
January 17, 20188 yr What about the working class man? They've already took tits off page three, two of three simple pleasures that used to motivate the lifeblood of the country - the other being bacon barms (plural).
January 17, 20188 yr Aye - the white working class man is getting royally fucked. It’s why you see the rise of the alt right. It’s an odd Venn diagram as thing such as the WEP and those working class bloke have a common issue about social power.
January 17, 20188 yr Mad, I’m sorry again it’s difficult to see where you are coming from, the power is with white middle class men and this shift (100 years in the making) will affect those in that bracket who previously by dint of colour of skin, sex and previlged of birth had an easier path to jobs and money. Talent notwithstanding. Perhaps if you answered the points of my posts directly . . . I agree with many things you say there. I just don't see how reducing it to a historic race/gender thing does much good in the present. Privilege of birth - indeed! (this has nowt to do with HW though, other than as a very loosely connected tangent) It's no wonder they were white, it was Britain a 100 years ago - the poor exploited workers were white n all. The issue you're referring to (I think) is a cultural one - not a racial or gender one per se. Equality starts with giving all youth the same ability to thrive. Until that happens, regardless of parental wealth, post code etc, we will always see inequality. Funnily enough, the working class white male youth is significantly underachieving currently compared to other genders and 'races' - Go Equal Ops! Not sure how that fits your narrative? Making it about men and race is reductionist, dated and given the subject matter a rather large irony, imo. Edited January 17, 20188 yr by madthatter
January 17, 20188 yr It’s not reductionist, it’s the actual heart of the matter. I'd love to carry on this discussion, genuinely; but feel we may be boring the pants off any other readers. (not for the first time!) Back on point - do you think she has a point re the article?
January 17, 20188 yr Its is indeed quite interesting reading you two. A lot makes sense; however I'd agree its far from a white, middle class man thing. There are far more extreme forms of this in other cultures within our society. Let's have a bit of a shift in attitudes, and let it apply to everyone.
January 17, 20188 yr Its is indeed quite interesting reading you two. A lot makes sense; however I'd agree its far from a white, middle class man thing. There are far more extreme forms of this in other cultures within our society. Let's have a bit of a shift in attitudes, and let it apply to everyone. Aye. My experience in other cultures and parts of the world have often shown issues we regard as 'inequality, sexist, racist etc' as being rather small fry and laughable by comparison. Russel Howard's gag about 'Oh my God our bins won't be emptied for two weeks!' gag being a classic reference. I'm not saying we shouldn't always seek to improve our lot - just that I find the reactions of some a bit out of proportion with events. I'm not sure if NIC is referring to world issues or just Britain but I reckon our culture is a beacon of good practice in these regards. And guess what? We are run by middle class white men, apparently Probably fat ones with tiny peckers as well, apart from Lord Coe, whose a sporty well-hung sort.
January 17, 20188 yr Western society is predicated on paternalism, the most powerful group are white men who earn over s certain amount, and they have the ability to earn more because that’s how society is set up. Look at the BBC pay grades debarcle, the amount of women in top executive positions in comparison to their male counterparts. Today I had my first client meeting in my new job, all went well because I’d passed the white male, middle aged test so the handover from my counterpart was smooth because I was innately trusted despite demonstrating no ability yet. Men benefit from this all the time. The idea that one country is a beacon of equality is nonsense. Everyday sexism doesn’t take the form of a wolf whistle or a bum pinch, it’s innate in our structures. Until these are challenged then it will always be the same, and it’s difficult because who wants to relinquish power? No one and especially mediocre white men who have unfairly benefitted.
January 17, 20188 yr Western society is predicated on paternalism, the most powerful group are white men who earn over s certain amount, and they have the ability to earn more because that’s how society is set up. Look at the BBC pay grades debarcle, the amount of women in top executive positions in comparison to their male counterparts. Today I had my first client meeting in my new job, all went well because I’d passed the white male, middle aged test so the handover from my counterpart was smooth because I was innately trusted despite demonstrating no ability yet. Men benefit from this all the time. The idea that one country is a beacon of equality is nonsense. Everyday sexism doesn’t take the form of a wolf whistle or a bum pinch, it’s innate in our structures. Until these are challenged then it will always be the same, and it’s difficult because who wants to relinquish power? No one and especially mediocre white men who have unfairly benefitted. Honestly, I couldn't agree more on the unfairness and inequality regarding our culture, the ruling 'elite' and those they entrust to keep it just so. And yes, they are most likely middle (upper) class white men. There was a link on WWys a while back showing just that and the links to top educational establishments. The BBC seems to be a living embodiment of that - albeit the John Lennon glasses wearing type If the focus of that inequality becomes solely about gender and race though (and we are in a predominantly white country, like it or not) it then fails to fully address, and maintains to a large degree, the racial and gender barriers that policies like Equal Ops are supposed to bring down. I guess what I'm saying is a lack of opportunity for all is what maintains the status quo - not race and gender.
January 17, 20188 yr To sum up the only reason a bloke tells a lass her hair looks good is because he wants to put his winky in her. If he pats her on the arse as he's saying it he's over stepped the mark. Unless she's a slag.
January 17, 20188 yr I'll add that your experiences differ quite a lot from mine it would seem. I've been refused entry to a higher educational institute due to my own educational background not being 'the right sort'(my grades etc met all the criteria), and most frustrating that is! Race/gender had nothing to do with it. Also, I'd say my line of work is very left leaning and female dominated, so in my experience I see more of the type of stuff you mention performed by women towards men! I'm also going to be working part-time while my mrs remains full time to help rear our child. Madthatter - embodying the Crawley vision Edited January 17, 20188 yr by madthatter
January 17, 20188 yr I reckon all these people who reckon we live in a patriarchal society need to spend a day nursing.
January 17, 20188 yr To sum up the only reason a bloke tells a lass her hair looks good is because he wants to put his winky in her. If he pats her on the arse as he's saying it he's over stepped the mark. Unless she's a slag. Now you tell me . . .
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