Hs2 re-visited

[Winchester White]

22 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Good article on it here, with plenty of eye-watering statistics.

https://archive.md/GjqCK

It's madness, why does it cost so much more here than Italy to do the same thing?

The US is an anomaly as they have mamy projects in NYC which is silly money and fuck all in most of the US but Canada surprised me.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

36 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

It's madness, why does it cost so much more here than Italy to do the same thing?

The US is an anomaly as they have mamy projects in NYC which is silly money and fuck all in most of the US but Canada surprised me.

https://www.comparemymove.com/advice/international/moving-to-italy-from-uk#:~:text=international removal companies.-,Property Prices,expensive than in the UK.

Might explain a bit.

Simply costs more here for land/property. 

When a compulsory purchase order is made, the compensation is going to be higher.

 

[DirtySanchez]

20 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

https://www.comparemymove.com/advice/international/moving-to-italy-from-uk#:~:text=international removal companies.-,Property Prices,expensive than in the UK.

Might explain a bit.

Simply costs more here for land/property. 

When a compulsory purchase order is made, the compensation is going to be higher.

 

Also the route was partly planned on our of date maps 

For the leg up to Leeds and around the Sheffield/Rotherham area they hadn't realised that a large housing estate had been built on land they thought was empty 

Had to compulsory purchase the lot and then scrapped the leg 

[Winchester White]

33 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Also the route was partly planned on our of date maps 

For the leg up to Leeds and around the Sheffield/Rotherham area they hadn't realised that a large housing estate had been built on land they thought was empty 

Had to compulsory purchase the lot and then scrapped the leg 

Well that is just fucking ridiculous. No wonder it is costing 3 times as much with inept governance like that!

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

34 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Also the route was partly planned on our of date maps 

For the leg up to Leeds and around the Sheffield/Rotherham area they hadn't realised that a large housing estate had been built on land they thought was empty 

Had to compulsory purchase the lot and then scrapped the leg 

Makes sense. 

Some of these projects take so long that shit loads can change in the meantime.

The new nuclear power station in Somerset is around 10 years iirc.

Building submarines etc can take a remarkable amount of time, during which new computer technology and weapons come along and modifications are needed etc etc.

Stuff just takes for ever!

[Tonge moor green jacket]

4 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

Well that is just fucking ridiculous. No wonder it is costing 3 times as much with inept governance like that!

 

I'm surprised they would use a map solely.

Expect satellite/aerial imagery, and the sort of software available to local governments to be used. 

Weird.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Tonge moor green jacket

[Sweep]

36 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I'm surprised they would use a map solely.

Expect satellite/aerial imagery, and the sort of software available to local governments to be used. 

Weird.

wouldn't the proposed rail line come up in the "searches" prior to the new housing estate being given approval and/or planning permission? 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Sweep

[frank_spencer]

32 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I'm surprised they would use a map solely.

Expect satellite/aerial imagery, and the sort of software available to local governments to be used. 

Weird.

Even Bolton council would go and get a survey done before committing to a project.

[DirtySanchez]

18 minutes ago, Sweep said:

wouldn't the proposed rail line come up in the "searches" prior to the new housing estate being given approval and/or planning permission? 

Not if the houses came first

[DirtySanchez]

50 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Makes sense. 

Some of these projects take so long that shit loads can change in the meantime.

The new nuclear power station in Somerset is around 10 years iirc.

Building submarines etc can take a remarkable amount of time, during which new computer technology and weapons come along and modifications are needed etc etc.

Stuff just takes for ever!

Use up to date maps then

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Just now, DirtySanchez said:

Not if the houses came first

Aye.

I did some reading back, and HS2 Ltd was set up in 2009, I think folk forget how far back it goes.

Once set up though, you'd expect and proposed routes to notice any housing estates!

[frank_spencer]

1 minute ago, DirtySanchez said:

Use up to date maps then

Once again even the council had an annual subscription to Ordnance Survey.

Plus Google maps is a thing and probably more up to date than anything else

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Use up to date maps then

As I said above, wouldn't expect just to use a map.

A bizarre thing to do in this modern era.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Just now, frank_spencer said:

Once again even the council had an annual subscription to Ordnance Survey.

Plus Google maps is a thing and probably more up to date than anything else

You'll have had access to the systems they use. Detailed, and with all sorts of measuring tools available as part of the package.

Wife uses software of that ilk now.

[DirtySanchez]

Just now, Tonge moor green jacket said:

As I said above, wouldn't expect just to use a map.

A bizarre thing to do in this modern era.

You'd be surprised

When I worked in East Yorkshire, there's a gas pipeline that comes from Europe, crosses the county and goes up to Teesside

But no one knew exactly where it was. Planning permission was granted to build a care home right on top of it 

The company that ran the pipeline finally produced maps of the route and it was finally noticed 

Had to go back to developer saying "you know you had permission to build a care home? Well now you can't, sorry"

[frank_spencer]

1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

You'll have had access to the systems they use. Detailed, and with all sorts of measuring tools available as part of the package.

Wife uses software of that ilk now.

It always amazed me how close the OS got the maps to any surveys we had done.

[frank_spencer]

1 minute ago, DirtySanchez said:

You'd be surprised

When I worked in East Yorkshire, there's a gas pipeline that comes from Europe, crosses the county and goes up to Teesside

But no one knew exactly where it was. Planning permission was granted to build a care home right on top of it 

The company that ran the pipeline finally produced maps of the route and it was finally noticed 

Had to go back to developer saying "you know you had permission to build a care home? Well now you can't, sorry"

BTs plans were always vague as fuck, most utilities provided detailed zoomable maps showing location and depth. BT would send a pdf showing a black line vaguely running down the street with a comment like yeah we've got cables there.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

3 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

You'd be surprised

When I worked in East Yorkshire, there's a gas pipeline that comes from Europe, crosses the county and goes up to Teesside

But no one knew exactly where it was. Planning permission was granted to build a care home right on top of it 

The company that ran the pipeline finally produced maps of the route and it was finally noticed 

Had to go back to developer saying "you know you had permission to build a care home? Well now you can't, sorry"

Don't these pipelines have physical markers, like shallower mains do?

So that they show up when folk go to a site?

[DirtySanchez]

17 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Don't these pipelines have physical markers, like shallower mains do?

So that they show up when folk go to a site?

Don't know 

But councils have a constraints map that picks up all sorts from conservation areas to supposedly gas pipelines 

Had they known it's exact route then it would have been flagged up straight away 

Was a new pipeline at the time and in an isolated area so unless you're walking around the edges of the site you may not notice the markers 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

4 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Don't know 

But councils have a constraints map that picks up all sorts from conservation areas to supposedly gas pipelines 

Had they known it's exact route then it would have been flagged up straight away 

Was a new pipeline at the time and in an isolated area so unless you're walking around the edges of the site you may not notice the markers 

Aye, I suppose you could miss them, if your site happens to be between two.

I remember when I was building a wood store in my garden- we have a marker near by so I contacted the gas, and they came out and drew a line just nipping the corner of my garden.

Bit of a bugger, but took the chance anyway- it's only a simple wooden structure should they need to access it.

[London Wanderer]

6 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Winner!

Wondered who the first would be to mention levelling up.

Hs2 was started way before Johnson was an mp, let alone before he coined the phrase "levelling up".

However, it is highly unlikely that any stated aims to bring extra prosperity to the North, unless extra freight genuinely is able to use it. The passenger aspect as everyone says, is of no great consequence. 

The Tories could decimate all the transport infrastructure up North and you’d still back them. They could start pumping the sewage directly into your kitchen taps and you’d still be there crossing that box. They could even go full blown climate denial on us all & I’d be surprised if you found fault. 
 

Til death do you part.

At least we’re not China though 👍

[Winchester White]

Northern Powerhouse was Cameron and Osborne back in 2010 wasn't it? We really should have decent rail between Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Hull, Preston, Lancaster, York, etc, etc.

Everyone should have decent infrastructure, it helps our economy enormously. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

5 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

The Tories could decimate all the transport infrastructure up North and you’d still back them. They could start pumping the sewage directly into your kitchen taps and you’d still be there crossing that box. They could even go full blown climate denial on us all & I’d be surprised if you found fault. 
 

Til death do you part.

At least we’re not China though 👍

What are you papping on about now?

Another swipe when it's you that showed your true colours!

I made no political comments on the thread, as this transcends the parties, but I expected someone to.

You seem to have missed the bit where I like the majority have expressed a dim view of the project, but don't look to attribute blame.

But as you have chosen that route, then where were your complaints when Gordon Brown set the whole thing in motion? Any moans about it not working for the North, and woodland felling etc?

You've offered criticism, and edged it towards Boris, when he had nothing to do with its inception.

He made the decision to keep it going, even though the costs were already prohibitive, and no doubt tagged it onto the "levelling up" strapline to help justify it, but the company inception was very much a labour party development. 

Yet you won't find me making any criticism of them for doing it. 

A laudable aim, if one that I didn't believe would necessarily achieve its aims.

And one that both parties have continued to support, so perhaps there is some justification for, even if many don't believe it.

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

18 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

Northern Powerhouse was Cameron and Osborne back in 2010 wasn't it? We really should have decent rail between Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Hull, Preston, Lancaster, York, etc, etc.

Everyone should have decent infrastructure, it helps our economy enormously. 

Yes.

The initial plans were changed, and it's not going to be as fast now. Iirc a couple of minutes slower.

The work has started on the upgrades- we've even had tv adverts to that effect, but God knows how well the work is going.

Just had a look, this gives plenty of information. 

https://thetrupgrade.co.uk/projects/

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Tonge moor green jacket

[tomski]

I’m shocked. The whole thing has been a farce from top to bottom. 

A few people will have made a fair bit of coin. Failed to deliver. Move on. Rinse and repeat.

The cynical side of me thinks this was always the game plan to win some gullible voters. They aren’t clever enough to think long game.

I wonder if Rishi’s family have invested in some company that builds railways or half finished ones.