Hs2 re-visited

[Tonge moor green jacket]

We had a discussion on here a while back, which suggested quite a substantial opposition to the project.

Now that there are rumours that the Northern section will be scrapped, what are the views now?

I was always an opponent of it, though softened slightly when an expert lady explained in more detail about the capacity issues on the East and West Coast mainlines.

[Zico]

Same as they always were 

An unnecessary waste of time and money 

The money should be pumped into local rail networks 

Further down the line, so to speak, but it's not the highest of rail priorities 

[Spider]

I’d sooner the money was spent on making greater Manchester as good as london for local transport infrastructure. More trains, more buses possibly increase the metro lines.

Take the pressure off the road network as much as possible.

The west coast mainline is fine so long as they have enough staff and look after the rolling stock.

Avanti are shit.

Going to london 20 minutes quicker is fucking nonsense.

Improve the transport here and there’s less need for everyone to go to the capital.

 

[Zico]

Time wise I checked and it's 1h 10m from Manc and 40 mins from Brum 

Impressive but can't say it's important 

How much would a ticket be?

[London Wanderer]

7 minutes ago, Spider said:

I’d sooner the money was spent on making greater Manchester as good as london for local transport infrastructure. More trains, more buses possibly increase the metro lines.

Take the pressure off the road network as much as possible.

The west coast mainline is fine so long as they have enough staff and look after the rolling stock.

Avanti are shit.

Going to london 20 minutes quicker is fucking nonsense.

Improve the transport here and there’s less need for everyone to go to the capital.

 

This. 
 

Shame we’ve lost so much native woodland for such an unnecessary project that never even came close to ‘levelling up’. 
 

 

[Winchester White]

If it went from Euston to Manchester and Leeds for the £34bn then I would say go for it.

However, if it goes from 6 miles outside of London to somewhere near Brum for 3 times that amount then fuck it off.

I have to raise though, why have costs spiralled so much? Why can every country in the world bar America do big construction so much cheaper than us?

[Not in Crawley]

But as TMGJ says its actually about capacity - not just speed, the name throws people. And as Gordon Brown said yesterday every other country in Europe is inversting in a high speed train structure, not to do so just stores up problems for the future.

Gtr.Manchester has the new Bee Network (first bus went this week from Farnworth) Its Burnham who is responsible for public transport in the region.

It needs to be finished, its been badly managed but its been communicated to the public when its needed very badly. Cross-party support to get this over the line is required.

[globaldiver]

18 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

But as TMGJ says its actually about capacity - not just speed, the name throws people. And as Gordon Brown said yesterday every other country in Europe is inversting in a high speed train structure, not to do so just stores up problems for the future.

Gtr.Manchester has the new Bee Network (first bus went this week from Farnworth) Its Burnham who is responsible for public transport in the region.

It needs to be finished, its been badly managed but its been communicated to the public when its needed very badly. Cross-party support to get this over the line is required.

It was about capacity when it was agreed, but have events overtaken? Do we still need the increased capacity after Covid/WFH?

it should have been started from the North West.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, London Wanderer said:

This. 
 

Shame we’ve lost so much native woodland for such an unnecessary project that never even came close to ‘levelling up’. 
 

 

Winner!

Wondered who the first would be to mention levelling up.

Hs2 was started way before Johnson was an mp, let alone before he coined the phrase "levelling up".

However, it is highly unlikely that any stated aims to bring extra prosperity to the North, unless extra freight genuinely is able to use it. The passenger aspect as everyone says, is of no great consequence. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, Winchester White said:

If it went from Euston to Manchester and Leeds for the £34bn then I would say go for it.

However, if it goes from 6 miles outside of London to somewhere near Brum for 3 times that amount then fuck it off.

I have to raise though, why have costs spiralled so much? Why can every country in the world bar America do big construction so much cheaper than us?

I'm not sure they do.

We do however have an issue with planning and appeals etc, together with a dense population with makes such a huge venture all the more difficult when you have to bulldoze homes.

Thankfully, we're not like China, that just forces folk out and gives no fucks.

Similar problems occur over military spending too- very long term projects inevitably get hit with inflation, technological advances etc.

 

[L/H White]

Read full thread 

https://twitter.com/JamesNokise/status/1706433356186161479?t=uOxjciqnQW06mdcPF-bHrw&s=19

[Spider]

Can’t compare us to China

They rehomed a million people for the 3 gorges dam. Anyone who complained was probably thrown in the water.

We (rightfully) have a lot more obstacles to jump over for large scale civil projects.

Which is why improving local services should be the priority.

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

7 minutes ago, Spider said:

Can’t compare us to China

They rehomed a million people for the 3 gorges dam. Anyone who complained was probably thrown in the water.

We (rightfully) have a lot more obstacles to jump over for large scale civil projects.

Which is why improving local services should be the priority.

 

Of course we can, given the very reasons we both state.

One democratic nation has many more hoops to jump through. The other isn't democratic.

So it takes longer.

 

Anyway, have a gander.

https://www.international-construction.com/news/7-construction-megaprojects-that-severely-overran-their-budget/8029458.article

[Not in Crawley]

2 hours ago, globaldiver said:

It was about capacity when it was agreed, but have events overtaken? Do we still need the increased capacity after Covid/WFH?

it should have been started from the North West.

I'd say so, levels are returning in all major cities and with more flexible working (people.moving further away from their offices for a better quality of life) the train need to keep up, the rush hour has basically extended.

[globaldiver]

6 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

I'd say so, levels are returning in all major cities and with more flexible working (people.moving further away from their offices for a better quality of life) the train need to keep up, the rush hour has basically extended.

I don’t think that the demand for up and down the country has recovered to pre Covid levels? I think that there are still many fewer trains than hitherto? 

[mickbrown]

We just seem shit at large infrastructure projects. 
 

Unless it’s in London then they’ll chuck everything at it.
 

See Crossrail. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by mickbrown

[deeane Koontz]

Id Rather them sort our local shitshow out.

Was just looking for a choo choo for Sunday night to get home after a gig in Manchester. Latest one is 11:14  and is a bus replacement. Last time I tried to catch that fucker it didn't turn up.

They really should be running 24h I'd imagine 3rd world countries have something resembling that 

It's a major fucking city

 

[Sweep]

The issue with HS2 is that we're already many billions into it, so we can't just stop. If they decide to get rid of the link to Manchester now, then that's just farcical. I've driven past a few sites down here where the landscape has been thoroughly decimated to accommodate HS2. It has to be seen through for me, and it also needs to include the Manchester and Leeds links. 

The talk of it not actually stretching into central London (Euston) as well is just ridiculous, it has to start/finish in London, otherwise what's the fucking point.

 

The whole projetc seems to have been a massive shambles from start, to not even finished yet. The original budget was £50B wasn't it, and now it's looking like it will be in excess of £100B and that's with a huge chunk of it not actually happening, and not "running" until 2035 at the earliest 

[Sweep]

2 minutes ago, deeane Koontz said:

Id Rather them sort our local shitshow out.

Was just looking for a choo choo for Sunday night to get home after a gig in Manchester. Latest one is 11:14  and is a bus replacement. Last time I tried to catch that fucker it didn't turn up.

They really should be running 24h I'd imagine 3rd world countries have something resembling that 

It's a major fucking city

 

I've said it many times before, the train service for the NW is a national disgrace/embarrasment

[Winchester White]

If we compare ourselves to similar countries such as Germany, Italy, France who have built high speed rail relatively recently, they did so quicker and much cheaper than HS2.

I get that we are more compact but the costs are staggering. There are people making stupid money from this project.

[Winchester White]

3 minutes ago, deeane Koontz said:

Id Rather them sort our local shitshow out.

Was just looking for a choo choo for Sunday night to get home after a gig in Manchester. Latest one is 11:14  and is a bus replacement. Last time I tried to catch that fucker it didn't turn up.

They really should be running 24h I'd imagine 3rd world countries have something resembling that 

It's a major fucking city

 

Very true, it is mad that rail transport stops a little after 11pm.

I had a look earlier for my lad who's going to Leeds soon, the leg from Manchester Victoria to Leeds was 55 minutes. Its less than 40 miles away and it takes nearly an hour!

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

47 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

If we compare ourselves to similar countries such as Germany, Italy, France who have built high speed rail relatively recently, they did so quicker and much cheaper than HS2.

I get that we are more compact but the costs are staggering. There are people making stupid money from this project.

France rebuilt Notre Dame cathedral for £700m

The costs of renovating the Houses of Parlaiment in London is estimated at £20bn

It's ridiculous

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

3 hours ago, globaldiver said:

It was about capacity when it was agreed, but have events overtaken? Do we still need the increased capacity after Covid/WFH?

it should have been started from the North West.

The DfT reported earlier this year (and also, in fact, last year) that the number of rail passengers had practically recovered, with figures often exceeding pre-pandemic levels

As a regular traveller, it doesn't quite feel like it to me, especially during the morning commute, so possibly there's a greater spread in number?

[Cheese]

Good article on it here, with plenty of eye-watering statistics.

https://archive.md/GjqCK

[Nowack]

Not sure why it needs to be a one or the other as well, surely these are not vanity projects, if they are seen to make us more productive as a country then they should happen. Truss was at least right that the country needs growth and these projects should be contributing to it.