January 16, 201214 yr Another very good point. A good strategic position as is Gib. Another thing Peacenik Francis overlooks is that if we had done fook all, how many other British outposts might have been invaded? It would have been open slather. Spaniards into Gib, God knows who invading others of the fourteen UK Overseas Territories like Bermuda, Virgin Islands,Cayman Islands or Montserrat? A stand had to be made. Whether the conflict could have been avoided or not, no nation of any reasonable military strength is going to simply allow the invasion of its land and people, no matter where they may be. I can't imagine any prime minister of any party (past or present) allowing that to happen on their watch, never mind someone like Maggie.
January 16, 201214 yr The only thing Callaghan discussed with Thatcher as he handed over the keys to 10 Downing St was the Falklands. Labours plans to increase the marine garrison & station a couple of warships were cancelled by Thatcher, why?. In 1981 Thatcher was the most unpopular PM this country had ever had. In order to win an election she need a war and she got one. Rather than increasing the garrison she reduced it and removed HMS Endurance, an Icebreaker & the only Royal Naval ship stationed at the Falklands. She may as well have rang Galleteri and said please invade. Even if you take the view that the war wasn't manufactured by Thatcher, you should ask yourself why were we caught with our trousers down. Galleteri had declared his intentions to retake the Falklands & that Argentina posed a clear and present danger to our sovereignty of the Falklands. Failure to strengthen the defences if nothing else was gross negligence on the Governments part.
January 16, 201214 yr I take it back. Sir Francis is not the dimmest I have ever jousted with. I was hoping people would tell i was making a wee joke about the milk but it seems you all think im serious I agree that the falklands needed defending but it didn't need a war. An earlier point was made that by putting lots of troops there we could of scared them from invading. Your patriotic nonsense about our army cracks me up as well :: Im full of admiration for lads that fell in world war one and two and lads who join the army to help another country, protect citizens and create prosperity. However the kind of people who the army brainwashes nowadays aren't as glorious as you make out mate. Happy jousting
January 16, 201214 yr Your patriotic nonsense about our army cracks me up as well :.gif' alt='default_lol.gif' alt='::lol::'>:.gif'> Im full of admiration for lads that fell in world war one and two and lads who join the army to help another country, protect citizens and create prosperity. However the kind of people who the army brainwashes nowadays aren't as glorious as you make out mate. This should be good... Come on let's hear it then. What exactly is the source of your expertise on this matter?
January 16, 201214 yr A regret I have is that I didn't join one of the armed services when younger. It takes in boys and makes them men with discipline and a respect for society. I would bring back National Service if I had my way, it might teach the youth of today some respect which is largely missing from todays society. I know this is a generalisation and not every boy comes out a better man with respect but most of the lads I know who have been in the forces are top top men. I have nothing but admiration for soldiers/sailors/airforcemen past and present. It isn't an easy meal ticket that some appear to believe.
January 16, 201214 yr A regret I have is that I didn't join one of the armed services when younger. It takes in boys and makes them men with discipline and a respect for society. I would bring back National Service if I had my way, it might teach the youth of today some respect which is largely missing from todays society. I know this is a generalisation and not every boy comes out a better man with respect but most of the lads I know who have been in the forces are top top men. I have nothing but admiration for soldiers/sailors/airforcemen past and present. It isn't an easy meal ticket that some appear to believe. National service? I for one know I'd be less than fuck all use to the lads and lasses on the front line. I'm a clumsy weakling with shit eyes and fucked lungs. Hardly her majestys finest. I'm not sure the scrotes and scumbags would be welcome either.
January 16, 201214 yr Ah, sucks Bolty - love you to. For what its worth my own view is the country required a different political ideology (and that's what's Thatcherism is to me) in the late 70s. The block voting and stranglehold of the Unions had made Labour an unwieldy and outdated political animal with many of its greats gone; I've said before my Father resigned from the council because of this, hence why they didn't even win in the early 90s when the Conservatives where lurching from crisis to crisis. The Falklands came at a very opportune time for the government and like any good political party, they used this to their advantage in the media. Where we wrong to send troops? No. Where mistakes made in the war? Yes, but then show me a conflict where either side is faultless. The myth that she was right to have closed down a lot of British industries should be put to bed though, although its easy to see why this narrative continues looking at the country in 2012; many on here either only knowing the 'boom' decade that proceeded the bust or having profited pretty well out of it. In reality, as when Britain moved from a largely agricultural economy in the late 1700s, both the up and coming service and banking sectors and industry could have survived, and thrived, in tandem throughout the 80s. The idea that this was a bitter pill that the country must swallow was because one party (although to be fair it Britain's elected government) believed that is where the future lay. Unfortunately, this future seemed to be only a reality in the Home Counties rather than the rest of the country. I do lay at Thatcher's feet the start of the demonisation of the working class and the terminal generational unemployment in some of Britain's poorest towns and cities. I also recognise the subsequent failure of the Labour party to halt this slide. There is no such thing as society seems to have become Britain's motto for a specific class and generation. What some posters on here write is post-Thatcherite 70 revisionism; which states that she saved us from the end of the decade, which is partly true, but doesn't paint the total picture in that for most the the decade Britain was much egalitarian than today and people felt that they could better themselves, and indeed did. Anyway, don't listen to mine, or anyone else's personal twaddle on here, I suggest reading When The Lights Went Out by Andy Beckett; its a really easy, entertaining read. He is a feature writer for the Guardian, but don't let that put you off if you are not of that particular political hue; it has interviews with most of the large political figures at the time and paints and even-handed picture of one of the most divisive decades in recent British history and the lineage of why Thatcher is both hated and revered. Thatcher, like any leader in power for a long time, was wrong about many things
January 16, 201214 yr National service? I for one know I'd be less than fuck all use to the lads and lasses on the front line. I'm a clumsy weakling with shit eyes and fucked lungs. Hardly her majestys finest. I'm not sure the scrotes and scumbags would be welcome either. there's more to do in the army than being a front line soldier. pen pushers and admin staff... cooks, drivers, computer operators everything really. As for scrotes and scumbags, they are the ones that would do best from a bit of discipline
January 16, 201214 yr there's more to do in the army than being a front line soldier. pen pushers and admin staff... cooks, drivers, computer operators everything really. As for scrotes and scumbags, they are the ones that would do best from a bit of discipline They may do best from the discipline. But do you think those in a warzone could trust that the scrote will 'have their back'? The military shouldn't have to do a parents job for them.
January 16, 201214 yr They may do best from the discipline. But do you think those in a warzone could trust that the scrote will 'have their back'? The military shouldn't have to do a parents job for them. I see your point but it costs a fortune to house them, clothe them, feed their habits and police them so why not have them in an environment that might teach them a bit of respect. You wouldn't have them on the front line obviously.
January 16, 201214 yr A regret I have is that I didn't join one of the armed services when younger. It takes in boys and makes them men with discipline and a respect for society. I would bring back National Service if I had my way, it might teach the youth of today some respect which is largely missing from todays society. I know this is a generalisation and not every boy comes out a better man with respect but most of the lads I know who have been in the forces are top top men. I have nothing but admiration for soldiers/sailors/airforcemen past and present. It isn't an easy meal ticket that some appear to believe. I used to laugh at the old farts who used to be preaching about National Service when we were kicking off at the football, nightclubs etc. Turns out that they (&Jazza) were right.
January 16, 201214 yr This should be good... Come on let's hear it then. What exactly is the source of your expertise on this matter? steady now, i aint cleaning up when you spit him out
January 17, 201214 yr This should be good... Come on let's hear it then. What exactly is the source of your expertise on this matter? Four old mates from Bolton joined up when i was at college. One was a youth BNP member at the time, the other two said they wanted to "kill pakis" and "die for queen and country" (all patriotic bullshite.) And the other one came back traumatised as he was bullied to fuk. The actions of those Marine soldiers illustrates what im sayin or the film Mark of Cain. Im sure there's lots of good people in the armed forces and im not claiming the pricks aren't brave or that our foriegn policy has been wrong, I just dont get a tear in my eye or well up with pride when i think of our armed forces. Edited January 17, 201214 yr by Youri Djorkaeff
January 17, 201214 yr Does anyone remember ALFA lager from a few years back? I think it was Dutch and just about the right strength, quite smooth too...They seemed to be giving it a right good go at cracking the UK and then disappeared without trace - unless someone's local offy stocks it. Five Flags (Belgian) and those big 660ml bottles Four Horses (Dutch again) - you never see those either anymore. I hate 'continental' lager brewed under license over here - all the real ale lot will probably say piss is piss wherever it's from/brewed. What's the most obscure lager/bitter or any other drink in your local shop? What drink have you never tried? Until recently mine was Kahlua. Nowt to do with Thatcher, but the thought of Man and Scyth cider got me sidetracked... Edited January 17, 201214 yr by Youri McAnespie
January 17, 201214 yr Four old mates from Bolton joined up when i was at college. One was a youth BNP member at the time, the other two said they wanted to "kill pakis" and "die for queen and country" (all patriotic bullshite.) And the other one came back traumatised as he was bullied to fuk. The actions of those Marine soldiers illustrates what im sayin or the film Mark of Cain. Im sure there's lots of good people in the armed forces and im not claiming the pricks aren't brave or that our foriegn policy has been wrong, I just dont get a tear in my eye or well up with pride when i think of our armed forces. 1) So you had a mate who was BNP then? 2) 'The pricks aren't brave'? FFS, you have a way with words. Brave folk who are pricks. Something I would never even think of. 3) If it is OK with you, I will take the good folk of Wootton Bassetts behaviour as a measure of Britons' pride in the Armed Forces rather than your cockeyed view. The other Youri is a pisstank
January 17, 201214 yr , take place wouldn;t be toomuch to Four old mates from Bolton joined up when i was at college. One was a youth BNP member at the time, the other two said they wanted to "kill pakis" and "die for queen and country" (all patriotic bullshite.) And the other one came back traumatised as he was bullied to fuk. The actions of those Marine soldiers illustrates what im sayin or the film Mark of Cain. Im sure there's lots of good people in the armed forces and im not claiming the pricks aren't brave or that our foriegn policy has been wrong, I just dont get a tear in my eye or well up with pride when i think of our armed forces. FOUR?? Is that it? That's your sample? 100,000 people in the Army alone and you know of four examples that mean they are brainwashed, inglorious and generally deserving of your contempt?? I won't waste my time for too long, but you haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about. No-one is asking for you to get a tear in your eye, but a moment's perspective, if you can manage it, before ritual slaggings of over 100,000 people who've done more for the common good before brew time than probably upwards of 90% of the population have shouldn't be beyond even your limits. Edited January 17, 201214 yr by Maggie Tate
January 17, 201214 yr And another thing Three of your four examples are people who hadn't even joined yet!!
January 17, 201214 yr An interesting aside, how Youri mentioned a BNP member and 2 racists: surely that's just 3 racists, then? Nice company you keep.
January 17, 201214 yr Ah, sucks Bolty - love you to. For what its worth my own view is the country required a different political ideology (and that's what's Thatcherism is to me) in the late 70s. The block voting and stranglehold of the Unions had made Labour an unwieldy and outdated political animal with many of its greats gone; I've said before my Father resigned from the council because of this, hence why they didn't even win in the early 90s when the Conservatives where lurching from crisis to crisis. The Falklands came at a very opportune time for the government and like any good political party, they used this to their advantage in the media. Where we wrong to send troops? No. Where mistakes made in the war? Yes, but then show me a conflict where either side is faultless. The myth that she was right to have closed down a lot of British industries should be put to bed though, although its easy to see why this narrative continues looking at the country in 2012; many on here either only knowing the 'boom' decade that proceeded the bust or having profited pretty well out of it. In reality, as when Britain moved from a largely agricultural economy in the late 1700s, both the up and coming service and banking sectors and industry could have survived, and thrived, in tandem throughout the 80s. The idea that this was a bitter pill that the country must swallow was because one party (although to be fair it Britain's elected government) believed that is where the future lay. Unfortunately, this future seemed to be only a reality in the Home Counties rather than the rest of the country. I do lay at Thatcher's feet the start of the demonisation of the working class and the terminal generational unemployment in some of Britain's poorest towns and cities. I also recognise the subsequent failure of the Labour party to halt this slide. There is no such thing as society seems to have become Britain's motto for a specific class and generation. What some posters on here write is post-Thatcherite 70 revisionism; which states that she saved us from the end of the decade, which is partly true, but doesn't paint the total picture in that for most the the decade Britain was much egalitarian than today and people felt that they could better themselves, and indeed did. Anyway, don't listen to mine, or anyone else's personal twaddle on here, I suggest reading When The Lights Went Out by Andy Beckett; its a really easy, entertaining read. He is a feature writer for the Guardian, but don't let that put you off if you are not of that particular political hue; it has interviews with most of the large political figures at the time and paints and even-handed picture of one of the most divisive decades in recent British history and the lineage of why Thatcher is both hated and revered. Thatcher, like any leader in power for a long time, was wrong about many things So, reading between the lines here You're saying you'd love to have sex with Maggie, but not to completion. I think that's fair enough. Maybe Dennis was more your cup of tea?
January 17, 201214 yr 1) So you had a mate who was BNP then? 2) 'The pricks aren't brave'? FFS, you have a way with words. Brave folk who are pricks. Something I would never even think of. 3) If it is OK with you, I will take the good folk of Wootton Bassetts behaviour as a measure of Britons' pride in the Armed Forces rather than your cockeyed view. The other Youri is a pisstank 1) That was thirtheen years ago when i was still in my teens, it doesn't take a genious to work out we all hung out with people in our past we wouldn't now. 2) If you cant understand that then fuk knows whats going through ya head. Course you can be brave and still be a prick. Being able to stand your ground in a fight doesn't mean your going to have a great personality. 3) You are welcome to do so.... I've a massive amount of respect for the people of Wooton Bassett and especially the solidarity they show with the deceased families. You can see it makes a huge differences to such families when they see so much support and makes the whole ordeal a little easier.
January 17, 201214 yr , take place wouldn;t be toomuch to FOUR?? Is that it? That's your sample? 100,000 people in the Army alone and you know of four examples that mean they are brainwashed, inglorious and generally deserving of your contempt?? I won't waste my time for too long, but you haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about. No-one is asking for you to get a tear in your eye, but a moment's perspective, if you can manage it, before ritual slaggings of over 100,000 people who've done more for the common good before brew time than probably upwards of 90% of the population have shouldn't be beyond even your limits. The three people who hadnt joined have served 5 years since and after speaking to old friend recently havnt changed their opnions much. It sounds more like being in the army has only strengthened their views. It's a small sample i know but the one who came back traumatised from bullying had been surrounded by hundreds who had all treated him equally like shite because he was Bi. Ive also read books, seen films based on true events and heard of other experiences that suggest people who work in the army today are not all as glorious as others make out. It can be an itimidating and machoistic environment that only attracts certain people. And of course that aint to say everyone who joins up is like this. I've given this more than a moments perspective and like i said before this isn't about foriegn policy. I believe what we are doing in Afghanistan is important and benefical to the country as what we did in Libya and may do in Syria. The shame in it all is that not all the people who go to fight in these places do so for the right reasons. I've more respect for groups like greenpeace, red cross and amnesty who go to dangerous places for the right reasons and risk alot to give aid to those who need it most. I travelled to the Gaza strip last year to work with children there and the people I was travelling with seemed to genuinely give a shit about the reasons they were going there.
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