Its Wigan

[Tonge moor green jacket]

We could use some infrastructure to support the houses we have already, but there is no political will to do so, it seems

This.

Was saying to the other half whilst stuck in traffic on the m60 yesterday that you can build houses but what about roads, rail, water,gas and electricity supply? Also food production.

Its not just about 5% of land built on, but more reservoirs and treatment plants, wind farms and power stations etc.

Authorities are increasingly strapped for suitable land and more building on flood plains etc doesn't help

We've a population crisis rather than a housing one.

[frank_spencer]

This.

Was saying to the other half whilst stuck in traffic on the m60 yesterday that you can build houses but what about roads, rail, water,gas and electricity supply? Also food production.

Its not just about 5% of land built on, but more reservoirs and treatment plants, wind farms and power stations etc.

Authorities are increasingly strapped for suitable land and more building on flood plains etc doesn't help

We've a population crisis rather than a housing one.

Like a lot of things it comes down to money far more money than a council can afford out of its own budgets.

 

Without investment from the government or as part of a massive private sector project. The infrastructure will struggle.

 

4/5 years ago the ICE and other construction and engineering bods were pushing massively for investment in national infrastructure and we're still waiting.

[fatolive]

Canon Slade don't have a fixed area from where they cherry-pick their pupils. They come from pretty much everywhere; Atherton, Tyldesley, Swinton, Pendlebury, Bury, Aspul, etc. So I'm nt really getting the point you make. (Thornleigh is the same; i.e. no "feeder" schools.)

 

Maybe Turton is the school needing to be moved to put the homes in Bromley Cross down a quid or three.

 

Thornleigh does have feeder schools.

It also has places for people not from those schools, but it does have feeder primary schools.

[royal white]

Massive boost for the area, it’s a yes from me

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Like a lot of things it comes down to money far more money than a council can afford out of its own budgets.

 

Without investment from the government or as part of a massive private sector project. The infrastructure will struggle.

 

4/5 years ago the ICE and other construction and engineering bods were pushing massively for investment in national infrastructure and we're still waiting.

Government is still doing it's balancing act so its not wazzing billions about.

HS2 doesn't help.

 

Who's responsibility is it to build power/water infrastructure-presumably the companies.

These require planning and are long term projects.

Flood prevention being required more and more and its also costly.

Country has a very high population density compared to other large European countries, and given its small size and comparatively large coastline/hilly zones we're actually getting quite full.

[MickyD]

Thornleigh does have feeder schools.

It also has places for people not from those schools, but it does have feeder primary schools.

Only by virtue of being Catholic schools.

[fatolive]

Only by virtue of being Catholic schools.

Well yeh, but they feed into the school taking the places so are feeder schools? Think the pupils at those schools also have to meet criteria too rather than just being accepted so I see what you’re saying

Not that it matters like or not that it’s owt do with the thread really !

[MickyD]

Well yeh, but they feed into the school taking the places so are feeder schools? Think the pupils at those schools also have to meet criteria too rather than just being accepted so I see what you’re saying

Not that it matters like or not that it’s owt do with the thread really !

 

What? D'you mean you can't go from a Ryder Cup golf course on the outskirts of Wigan and Bolton to Catholic school in three pages?

[birch-chorley]

Government is still doing it's balancing act so its not wazzing billions about.

HS2 doesn't help.

 

Who's responsibility is it to build power/water infrastructure-presumably the companies.

These require planning and are long term projects.

Flood prevention being required more and more and its also costly.

Country has a very high population density compared to other large European countries, and given its small size and comparatively large coastline/hilly zones we're actually getting quite full.

Our economy isn’t built for a stagnant population

 

If our population doesn’t grow then we are fucked

 

You need a larger proportion of people who are working age to service everyone who retires and that won’t happen if the population stands still

 

Unless you start to kill people when they hit 75 / 80

[birch-chorley]

Do we actually need more houses?

If you look at the last Budget the Conservatives promised to build 300k houses a year to help with the ‘housing crisis’

 

If you look at Labour’s manifesto from the GE last year they promised to build 1m extra new homes to tackle the ‘housing crisis’

 

Both sides of the political spectrum would say we need to build many more houses

 

Clearly part of the cost of them should be improving the infrastructure to go with the developments, which I believe is generally the case

[freds dad]

We could use some infrastructure to support the houses we have already, but there is no political will to do so, it seems

 

There isn't a big profit to be made from infrastructure.

[MickyD]

If you look at the last Budget the Conservatives promised to build 300k houses a year to help with the ‘housing crisis’

 

If you look at Labour’s manifesto from the GE last year they promised to build 1m extra new homes to tackle the ‘housing crisis’

 

Both sides of the political spectrum would say we need to build many more houses

 

Clearly part of the cost of them should be improving the infrastructure to go with the developments, which I believe is generally the case

But the Tories' 300k houses will stand on exactly the same footprint as Labour's 1million homes so all's good.

[kent_white]

Our economy isn’t built for a stagnant population

 

If our population doesn’t grow then we are fucked

One of the many reasons why capitalism is unsustainable in its current form.

 

As you were comrades

[MickyD]

Didn't do much for the Chinese economy!

[birch-chorley]

One of the many reasons why capitalism is unsustainable in its current form.

 

As you were comrades

Not sure it’s got anything to do with capitalism

 

Use any system you want, it’s basic numbers

 

If you have more people contributing nothing than you have people producing stuff then there won’t be enough to go round

 

The only game changer might come in the form of robots / automation

Edited March 18, 2018 by birch-chorley

[Traf]

Alan Rough

Kenny Irons

Trolley Gunnar Solskjaer

[Tonge moor green jacket]

One of the many reasons why capitalism is unsustainable in its current form.

 

As you were comrades

I agree that our current path is wholly unsustainable. Not sure about the political bit, though I guess there's a bit of tongue in cheek.

 

Birch, plenty of folk now realising that we now need to pay more (significantly ) into pension schemes.

There was actually a tiny fall in the longevity stats last time I heard.

Whichever way it comes down to finance, just keeping raisingredients the population won't resolve the problem.

One thing is for sure is that they'll be no need to kill people off as it will start to happen naturally. Whether on a trolley in a hospital or via crumbling social care or nice stopping more and more medicines from being funded.

[birch-chorley]

Finance is only part of it though mate

 

You could give everyone a gold plated final salary pension yet your still in trouble if you don’t have the right mix of demographics

 

Too many people sat at home retired not enough people of working age running schools, hospitals, shops etc is a recipe for disaster. Throw as much money at it as you want, you need people to work to keep the country going and service the population

 

Flat population growth generally means an aging population and a ticking time bomb

 

Germany and Italy amongst others are currently trying to grapple with this issue

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Finance is only part of it though mate

 

You could give everyone a gold plated final salary pension yet your still in trouble if you don’t have the right mix of demographics

 

Too many people sat at home retired not enough people of working age running schools, hospitals, shops etc is a recipe for disaster. Throw as much money at it as you want, you need people to work to keep the country going and service the population

 

Flat population growth generally means an aging population and a ticking time bomb

 

Germany and Italy amongst others are currently trying to grapple with this issue

Indeed. Nature will find a way though, lack of food, war etc..

May well need a period of rebalancing; just rather that happen sooner rather than later. Raising the pension age means more people working which might help a little. Fewer people in non essential industries will naturally follow as people will have less spare cash.

Not necessarily an attractive scenario, but ultimately we can't have our cake and eat it.

I find this absolutely fascinating as a subject of discussion; its bigger than any political issue.

Scientists now finding the vital role green space plays in all manner of ways, from health to countering urban heat islands etc. Eventually something has to give.

[bolty58]

Indeed. Nature will find a way though

 

 

Hallelujah, brother. Indeed she will.

[Guest]

Indeed. Nature will find a way though, lack of food, war etc..

May well need a period of rebalancing; just rather that happen sooner rather than later. Raising the pension age means more people working which might help a little. Fewer people in non essential industries will naturally follow as people will have less spare cash.

Not necessarily an attractive scenario, but ultimately we can't have our cake and eat it.

I find this absolutely fascinating as a subject of discussion; its bigger than any political issue.

Scientists now finding the vital role green space plays in all manner of ways, from health to countering urban heat islands etc. Eventually something has to give.

 

So we're going to send the blue rinse brigade in to fight the russkies?

 

Or are we just going to lock them in their homes and wait for them to starve to death?

 

The only answer to this is to have more people in the country of working age. Now, I wonder how we might acheive that? If only we had access to a market of young, fit, people looking to work? Hmmmm.....

[miamiwhite]

So we're going to send the blue rinse brigade in to fight the russkies?

 

Or are we just going to lock them in their homes and wait for them to starve to death?

 

The only answer to this is to have more people in the country of working age. Now, I wonder how we might acheive that? If only we had access to a market of young, fit, people looking to work? Hmmmm.....

Looking to work ?

 

Fuck right off with that quote...

[Tonge moor green jacket]

So we're going to send the blue rinse brigade in to fight the russkies?

 

Or are we just going to lock them in their homes and wait for them to starve to death?

 

The only answer to this is to have more people in the country of working age. Now, I wonder how we might acheive that? If only we had access to a market of young, fit, people looking to work? Hmmmm.....

Typical. Are we going to ban immigration post Brexit?

The point is that your current scenario is not sustainable, the sooner that politicians take this on board the better.

 

An expert in heard talking about couple of years ago explained that for every joule of energy our current agriculture system produces in terms of food, it uses around two and a half joules of energy to produce it!

 

Keep building and increase the population and you increase demand and the need for more intensive methods.

You can talk about politics, etc all you want. Nothing compares to the fundamentals of the need for food, water, and space.

[Guest]

Typical. Are we going to ban immigration post Brexit?

The point is that your current scenario is not sustainable, the sooner that politicians take this on board the better.

 

An expert in heard talking about couple of years ago explained that for every joule of energy our current agriculture system produces in terms of food, it uses around two and a half joules of energy to produce it!

 

Keep building and increase the population and you increase demand and the need for more intensive methods.

You can talk about politics, etc all you want. Nothing compares to the fundamentals of the need for food, water, and space.

 

But whatever the "solution" it sure as hell won't come on a plate or by nature. 

 

Bottom line is we need a greater ratio of working age people to oldies. 

There are two ways to achieve that. 

 

1) Have fewer oldies

2) Have more working age people.

 

How you achieve 1 or 2 is open for debate. 1 is clearly entirely unpalatable in modern society. So it has to be 2. Whether people are encouraged to start breeding more or we import it, one way or the other that is the only solution. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

You're not getting the point. We only need more people if society carries on along its current path. Which it cannot do.

Evidence is all around that things are changing because of environmental changes.

Look at the middle east; much of that area's wealth comes from oil, but a lot of it is in desert areas. Can't sustain a large population long term as oil reserves drop.

Even the top fella from Saudi who was here last week is seeing the need for change long term.