Are in Manchester today

Might pop down at lunchtime 

Wonder if they’ll take their plastic bottles home with them?

On 18/10/2019 at 20:37, London Wanderer said:

I'm no expert on VAT. But I think when you cut the tax of a selective group of businesses by 15% from the standard rate then that particular case has to count as subsidies. I don't see that as a weak interpretation. It's putting money into the pockets of fossil fuel companies and charging renewable businesses more. Where are the incentives in that? If it was a level playing field then fair play but they've just increased the tax to 20% for the instillation of renewable energy sources, including solar powered battery systems. 

We talk about pressure on households but failing to meet our current targets (which we're behind on) will put more far more financial pressure on households than making the changes now would. 

 

They haven’t cut it to 5%, domestic fuel has historically been 0% but this was increased by the Tories in the early 90’s...

Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.

Full link...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430504

All domestic energy that comes through the grid is charged at 5% VAT (renewable and traditional). Given in the last three months we have used more renewable than traditional it’s safe to say that renewable has had more subsidies then in your world? 

With regards your point about 20% VAT on installation of renewable energy systems (solar). It’s not domestic energy through the grid is it? It’s the same as getting a log burner installed, which also comes with 20% VAT 

As the link above shows, VAT rates are tightly controlled by the EU anyroad

 

7 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

They haven’t cut it to 5%, domestic fuel has historically been 0% but this was increased by the Tories in the early 90’s...

Although the UK charged 0% VAT on domestic fuel bills in 1991, the Conservative government introduced a VAT rate of 8% in 1993. This was later lowered to 5% under Labour. Under the EU rules, this is now the lowest VAT rate possible for British domestic fuel bills.

Full link...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430504

All domestic energy that comes through the grid is charged at 5% VAT (renewable and traditional). Given in the last three months we have used more renewable than traditional it’s safe to say that renewable has had more subsidies then in your world? 

With regards your point about 20% VAT on installation of renewable energy systems (solar). It’s not domestic energy through the grid is it? It’s the same as getting a log burner installed, which also comes with 20% VAT 

As the link above shows, VAT rates are tightly controlled by the EU anyroad

 

Thanks for sharing. It seems like these subsidies are difficult to unpack then which is why I would struggle to answer your first question. In this article he argues they are doing it through lowering the price to the consumer. https://newint.org/features/2019/08/14/temperature-check

Plus VAT, whether or not it counts as a subsidy, is just around a third of those subsidies to fossil fuels. So if you're right and it shouldn't count as a subsidy, there are still other significant parts such as the evironmental cost further down the line. 

I don't think it counts as domestic energy through the grid no. Either way the policy changes appeared to slow the growth of renewable enerygy. https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/solar-wind-energy-renewable-energy-resources-drop-conservative-party-707953

To go back to the original point, I'm not doubting that we are making good progress on renewable energy in the UK. But I don't see it as a cause to celebrate or become complacement. I think many people still don't understand the urgency of the situation. We should be transitioning to renewable energy much faster and certainly shouldn't be opening new coal mines. Yet this has just been approved in Cumbria.  https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/cumbria-coal-mine-woodhouse-colliery-climate-change-a8830046.html It's bonkers.

 For me, to face this challenge and suceed we need to be willing to take a financial hit early on. The alternative is to wait until the solutions are too costly to fix/ Which is why we need legislation against short term politics when it comes to climate change policy. Whilst the British government continue to blow their own trumpet on 'renewable progress', themselves, banks and industry continue to invest billions in fossil fuel companies abroad. British businesses are currently opening coal mines in South America and investing in oil drilling in Antartica. We're no angels in any of this. 

Edited October 20, 20196 yr by London Wanderer

Unfortunately, it's not quite as cut and dried. A lot of our pensions and investments are tied up in business all over the shop.

BD linked to ethical policies previously.

Not sure government could be too restrictive with what British companies can do, but perhaps they could lead by helping and investing in renewables and pressuring the motor industry for example.

Some moves towards helping people move away from gas heating too.

Perhaps some more work/advertisement of ethical stuff would be useful

11 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Unfortunately, it's not quite as cut and dried. A lot of our pensions and investments are tied up in business all over the shop.

BD linked to ethical policies previously.

Not sure government could be too restrictive with what British companies can do, but perhaps they could lead by helping and investing in renewables and pressuring the motor industry for example.

Some moves towards helping people move away from gas heating too.

Perhaps some more work/advertisement of ethical stuff would be useful

Aye you're probably right. Which is why I often think we're screwed. Not because China and developing countries won't get their act together, but because the most polluting industries are unwilling to change. So much of the damage is being caused by just 20 companies and when you try to raise that issue you're suddenly an anti-capitalist. 

The science is only getting more and more sinister and until people start taking it seriously I can't see us acting in time. This is the latest research regarding the acidification of our oceans. Another major catastrophe we could be sleep walking into and that very few people are aware of. The researcher here says that a 0.25 rise in pH was enough to spark the last mass extinction and our oceans are set to rise to 0.4pH if we continue on our trajectory, or 0.15pH if we curb to 2 degrees of warming. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/21/ocean-acidification-can-cause-mass-extinctions-fossils-reveal.

It's worth noting that elements of this research should be taken with a pinch of salt. Even the researcher points out that just because something had that effect in the past doesn't mean it will have exactly the same effect now. However, they are still arguing that this predicted acifidication is likely to cause undesirable and effectively irreversible damage to ocean biology. We're effectively being warned that marine life could be extinct by the end of the century and it is pretty much invisible in the media. This is coming from mainstream and current research but as soon as someone repeats it on the street they are accused of hypocrisy or scaremongering. I think our biggest downfall is so many of us live in urban places and have no idea just how crucial biodiversity is to our existence. 

This world needs the immediate phasing out of fossil fuels and pollutants, combined with laws that criminalise those who produce them. Advertising the ethical stuff and promoting the right consumer choices is great, but it won't save us. 

Edited October 21, 20196 yr by London Wanderer

LW, writing epistles has been the downfall of plenty on here. Recent examples Custard Diet and Sluffy on Takeover thread.

If you want to stay noticed (I was going to say relevant but you soon learn that we are all pretty much irrelevant on here anyway), take a tip.

Keep it short and sharp. This is Wanderesways for fucks sake. We have a reputation to maintain.

I usually zone out by the end of your first paragraph.

10 hours ago, bolty58 said:

LW, writing epistles has been the downfall of plenty on here. Recent examples Custard Diet and Sluffy on Takeover thread.

If you want to stay noticed (I was going to say relevant but you soon learn that we are all pretty much irrelevant on here anyway), take a tip.

Keep it short and sharp. This is Wanderesways for fucks sake. We have a reputation to maintain.

I usually zone out by the end of your first paragraph.

Don't worry bud. I'm not here to rise to glory, happy for the downfall to occur. I'm back to full time work this week so haven't got time for my own waffling shite.

It's a good advice though- to sum up- we're fucked & it's all your fault 😁

Edited October 22, 20196 yr by London Wanderer

5 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Don't worry bud. I'm not here to rise to glory, happy for the downfall to occur. I'm back to full time work this week so haven't got time for my own waffling shite.

It's a good advice though- to sum up- we're fucked & it's all your fault 😁

Not read the Tolstoy posts, so apologies if already been discussed, but what’s your thoughts on the ER person found guilty of vandalising a war memorial ?

Bit of a cunt’s trick don’t you think ?

11 minutes ago, miamiwhite said:

Not read the Tolstoy posts, so apologies if already been discussed, but what’s your thoughts on the ER person found guilty of vandalising a war memorial ?

Bit of a cunt’s trick don’t you think ?

Incarcerate the twat. That way we can reduce his carbon footprint while he paces in his cell.

2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Incarcerate the twat. That way we can reduce his carbon footprint while he paces in his cell.

Is the correct answer

 

37 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Incarcerate the twat. That way we can reduce his carbon footprint while he paces in his cell.

Can't see any complaints with that. Anyone going to disagree?

7 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Can't see any complaints with that. Anyone going to disagree?

The ayes have it!!!

35 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Can't see any complaints with that. Anyone going to disagree?

Good man.

Finally seeing sense now you’re working for a living

 

2 hours ago, miamiwhite said:

Not read the Tolstoy posts, so apologies if already been discussed, but what’s your thoughts on the ER person found guilty of vandalising a war memorial ?

Bit of a cunt’s trick don’t you think ?

I love that if you want more action on climate change you're suddenly a Marxist 😁 Or is Tolstoy a reference to somebody else on the thread?

I've just read about this. What an absolute prick. Unfortunately the cause seems to have attracted a few numpties. Give him a winter on the Shetlands planting trees and force him to wear exactly the same shoes he wore in court today.

4 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

I love that if you want more action on climate change you're suddenly a Marxist 😁 Or is Tolstoy a reference to somebody else on the thread?

I've just read about this. What an absolute prick. Unfortunately the cause seems to have attracted a few numpties. Give him a winter on the Shetlands planting trees and force him to wear exactly the same shoes he wore in court today.

Well said fella.

Tolstoy was a mere reference to your elongated articles, nothing more

 

28 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

I love that if you want more action on climate change you're suddenly a Marxist 😁 Or is Tolstoy a reference to somebody else on the thread?

I've just read about this. What an absolute prick. Unfortunately the cause seems to have attracted a few numpties. Give him a winter on the Shetlands planting trees and force him to wear exactly the same shoes he wore in court today.

Strangely, putting the twat to work on a tree planting gang isn't such a bad idea. There are gangs going round shoving in thousands of young trees all over the place. Bloody hard work, tramping through difficult terrain, with a pack full of bare rooted trees and a slitting device.

Might think twice about disrespecting those lost in conflict.

33 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Strangely, putting the twat to work on a tree planting gang isn't such a bad idea. There are gangs going round shoving in thousands of young trees all over the place. Bloody hard work, tramping through difficult terrain, with a pack full of bare rooted trees and a slitting device.

Might think twice about disrespecting those lost in conflict.

Saw someone doing it near The Morris Dancers earlier, think it was on Sapling Road.

14 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Don't worry bud. I'm not here to rise to glory, happy for the downfall to occur. I'm back to full time work this week so haven't got time for my own waffling shite.

It's a good advice though- to sum up- we're fucked & it's all your fault 😁

 Guilty as charged. For a start I drive a gas guzzling V8 Mustang and four two stroke throbbing steeds.

17 hours ago, miamiwhite said:

Saw someone doing it near The Morris Dancers earlier, think it was on Sapling Road.

That's quite good!

22 hours ago, miamiwhite said:

Well said fella.

Tolstoy was a mere reference to your elongated articles, nothing more

 

👍 Not gonna argue with that one

16 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

👍 Not gonna argue with that one

You can’t mate

 

Wind technology will/can save us

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2019/10/25/offshore-wind-can-power-the-world-say-former-sceptics/#7ba5a3c161f9

56 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Wind technology will/can save us

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrvetter/2019/10/25/offshore-wind-can-power-the-world-say-former-sceptics/#7ba5a3c161f9

Good stuff.

Might need to enlarge our navy as mentioned by the joint select committee this week. Power infrastructure would surely be a target for nasty people.

I’ve actually quite enjoyed reading LW’s essays. And the last one was very enlightening. It’s stuff I need to understand better. Feel sorry for ER. Noble cause hijacked by some cretins

On 26/10/2019 at 18:17, MancWanderer said:

I’ve actually quite enjoyed reading LW’s essays. And the last one was very enlightening. It’s stuff I need to understand better. Feel sorry for ER. Noble cause hijacked by some cretins

I shouldn't encouraged pal 😁

Much appreciated though.

Saw this today - it's scary stuff. New projections of what will be underwater at high tide in some of the world's major cities by 2050.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/29/climate/coastal-cities-underwater.html