Is it kicking off big time or is this just everyday stuff they deal with or a bit of both?

 

4 minutes ago, kent_white said:

My point was - if they have killed 50,000 civilians (appreciate that that's a contested figure - but it's likely to be there or there about) - that the idea that they do their best to protect civilians seems like absolute gaslighting. 

That’s not what you said though  you said 50k is not worth a dozen terrorists. Who said they’ve only killed a dozen terrorists? 
 

 

7 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Genuine question. Do you think Israel would pull the troops back and cease hostilities if Hamas handed over the remaining hostages this afternoon? 

For a week or so then maybe they will carry on trying to eliminate Hamas. 

13 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

Surely Gary Lineker and a few off here can help out?

They've not got any room mate

Just now, royal white said:

That’s not what you said though  you said 50k is not worth a dozen terrorists. Who said they’ve only killed a dozen terrorists? 
 

 

The man in the video you posted said it. And anyway - whether it was 60 Hamas or 6,000 Hamas - you'd be happy about it either way wouldn't you?

And to be honest - I'd be less concerned with my slightly ambiguous, and hastily posted message, and more concerned with the kids who no longer have arms/legs/sight/parents/homes etc.

We're never going to understand each others mentalities on this I don't think 

34 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

You’re completely ignoring the illegal occupations, evictions & land encroachments pre Oct 7. 

I'm not.

Do you think what is happening now would be happening if it wasn't for the events on 7th Oct?

I don't 

2 minutes ago, royal white said:

For a week or so then maybe they will carry on trying to eliminate Hamas. 

Exactly - so if you were Hamas - why would you release any hostages without any well brokered cease fire? Or even after any well brokered cease fire of you think Israel would just disregard it after a week. 

Other than for humanitarian reasons and because it's the 'right thing to do'. 

Because let's face it - this is an extremely dirty war and things like humanitarianism went out of the window post Oct 7th. 

The only way I can see this ending as things stand is if Israel manage to entirely displace the population of Gaza, and then heavily fortify it. 

5 minutes ago, kent_white said:

The man in the video you posted said it. And anyway - whether it was 60 Hamas or 6,000 Hamas - you'd be happy about it either way wouldn't you?

And to be honest - I'd be less concerned with my slightly ambiguous, and hastily posted message, and more concerned with the kids who no longer have arms/legs/sight/parents/homes etc.

We're never going to understand each others mentalities on this I don't think 

He didn’t say that 🤦🏻 I thought you watched it twice? Dozens have been killed in operation Gideon Chariot is what he said. It’s literally his first couple of sentences. And again no one mentioned dozens of Hamas being killed in aid queues, that was just some random figures you threw out there. 
 

And we keep hearing 50k civilians killed. It’s not. Approx 12-17k of those are Hamas. Still it’s a lot of civvies but not as many as being thrown about. 

Edited July 5, 2025Jul 5 by royal white

15 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

Condemn the hiders not the seekers. It is they are are putting your innocents in harms way.

It's not hide and seek though is it mate. It's cower like a rat and try to avoid guided missiles that have to crash through hundreds of civilians to get to you, obliterating then in the process. 

Hamas are absolute cunts for employing this tactic. And the Israelis are absolute cunts for not taking a different approach. 

Basically it's a war between two sets of utter cunts - with lots of dead men, women and children caught in the cross fire. 

It knocks me sick. 

6 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Exactly - so if you were Hamas - why would you release any hostages without any well brokered cease fire? Or even after any well brokered cease fire of you think Israel would just disregard it after a week. 

Other than for humanitarian reasons and because it's the 'right thing to do'. 

Because let's face it - this is an extremely dirty war and things like humanitarianism went out of the window post Oct 7th. 

The only way I can see this ending as things stand is if Israel manage to entirely displace the population of Gaza, and then heavily fortify it. 

If that’s the case then the rest of the world, especially those supplying arms, can take a different view and question if what they’re doing is right.  As long as those hostages remain hostages Israel will have an excuse. Once they’re handed over it’s a completely different outlook. 

5 minutes ago, royal white said:

If that’s the case then the rest of the world, especially those supplying arms, can take a different view and question if what they’re doing is right.  As long as those hostages remain hostages Israel will have an excuse. Once they’re handed over it’s a completely different outlook. 

Handing over those hostages as things stand is suicide as far as Hamas is concerned. 

So Israel have got them exactly where they want them. They might be a set of evil cunts - but they're very clever at what they do. 

13 minutes ago, royal white said:

He didn’t say that 🤦🏻 I thought you watched it twice? Dozens have been killed in operation Gideon Chariot is what he said. It’s literally his first couple of sentences. And again no one mentioned dozens of Hamas being killed in aid queues, that was just some random figures you threw out there. 
 

And we keep hearing 50k civilians killed. It’s not. Approx 12-17k of those are Hamas. Still it’s a lot of civvies but not as many as being thrown about. 

Fair enough - it doesn't sound quite so bad now it's only 33,000 - 38,000 civvies. 

50,000 is my benchmark for raising an eyebrow - so I'll park my outrage for a bit until we hit a nice round number! 🙄

3 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Fair enough - it doesn't sound quite so bad now it's only 33,000 - 38,000 civvies. 

50,000 is my benchmark for raising an eyebrow - so I'll park my outrage for a bit until we hit a nice round number! 🙄

Ditto with killed terrorists. 12-17k sounds a whole lot better than a few dozen 🤪

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

Genuine question. Do you think Israel would pull the troops back and cease hostilities if Hamas handed over the remaining hostages this afternoon? 

After October 7th, Israel made its 2 objectives clear, 1..to save the hostages & 2..to weaken hamas to the point that they cannot repeat the Oct 7th attack on Israel.

If the hostages were released I would expect Israel to continue to hunt down & kill hamas terrorists, but without the pressure to try & rescue the hostages , they could do it more patiently & further minimise the danger to civilians......the terrorists can't hide behind civilians in schools & hospitals for ever.

6 minutes ago, bolton va va said:

the terrorists can't hide behind civilians in schools & hospitals for ever.

Unfortunately by that point - there's not really much of a country left of any description to 'liberate'. 

And I imagine most of the hostages would die in the process. 

And I doubt there are many school or hospitals left. So got know how the Palestinians are supposed to rebuild their lives. 

I imagine if I was there - I'd look around at the destruction and conclude there was nothing left worth living for in my life and devote myself to revenge. For however the remainder of my short and miserable life was left.....

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

Genuine question. Do you think Israel would pull the troops back and cease hostilities if Hamas handed over the remaining hostages this afternoon? 

There'd be a far greater chance, that's for certain.

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

 things like humanitarianism went out of the window post Oct 7th. 

Not 'post'. On.

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

Hamas are absolute cunts for employing this tactic. And the Israelis are absolute cunts for not taking a different approach. 

Curious to know what you think this would be?

We hear the words 'existential threat' a lot these days. From folk like London Wanderer and his fellow yoghourt knitters; from Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellends; from anti nuclear campaigners; from a plethora of hysterical types about almost every fucking thing they can attention seek with.

Israel is surrounded by existential threats. Seeing the job through and removing one might be too good a chance to let go by.

1 hour ago, wanderer1984 said:

I'm not.

Do you think what is happening now would be happening if it wasn't for the events on 7th Oct?

I don't 

It has been happening. Israel have been committing war crimes and atrocities for decades. 

"Over the past 50 years, Israel has demolished tens of thousands of Palestinian properties and displaced large swathes of the population to build homes and infrastructure to illegally settle its own population in the occupied territories. It has also diverted Palestinian natural resources such as water and agricultural land for settlement use.

The very existence of settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories violates international humanitarian law and is a war crime. Despite multiple UN resolutions, Israel has continued to appropriate Palestinian land and support at least 600,000 settlers living in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Until 2005, more than 9,000 Israeli settlers were illegally residing in Gaza."

The Israeli defence minister resigned before October 7th, claiming that the land grabs in the West Bank and Gaza were going to escalate the situation. Nobody is saying Hamas don't bear responsibility. But to dismiss that Israel have also played a huge part in the latest escalation is just naïve. And what is clear is that they are using this opportunity to further their aims of taking more land and moving settlers into Gaza. 

It's a long conflict - but here is a good summary of the last 50 years if you're interested.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

I'd be genuinely interested in your argument/opinion against that being ethnic cleansing after reading it? 

Edited July 5, 2025Jul 5 by London Wanderer

2 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

Curious to know what you think this would be?

We hear the words 'existential threat' a lot these days. From folk like London Wanderer and his fellow yoghourt knitters; from Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellends; from anti nuclear campaigners; from a plethora of hysterical types about almost every fucking thing they can attention seek with.

Israel is surrounded by existential threats. Seeing the job through and removing one might be too good a chance to let go by.

Why doesn't Palestine have a right to sovereignty ? 

Israel exists. They have a nation state. Palestinians across the West Bank and Gaza live in far more fear of having their home ripped to pieces and told to move on. That's not to dismiss some Israeli's live in fear as well. But they are not having their land stolen from them. 

Why are you against a two state solution? 

2 hours ago, bolty58 said:

Curious to know what you think this would be?

We hear the words 'existential threat' a lot these days. From folk like London Wanderer and his fellow yoghourt knitters; from Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellends; from anti nuclear campaigners; from a plethora of hysterical types about almost every fucking thing they can attention seek with.

Israel is surrounded by existential threats. Seeing the job through and removing one might be too good a chance to let go by.

They had a lot of options but went for the nuclear (well maybe just short of nuclear). 

I think the most justifiable would have been a targeted-intensive campaign. More intensive than limited strikes but not a broad campaign. Mainly aimed at prioritising hostage rescue, eliminating Hamas leadership structure (we already know they're world class at this), destroying the tunnel network, but avoiding civilian population centres unless they had absolutely no choice. 

Appreciate what a tough position it was for Israel at the time - but I'd argue this would have been proportionate and kept most of the international community onside. Including me. And maybe quite a few of my ilk on here too. Maybe even Bob Vylan 😁

467 people (mainly civilians) are being killed every day since the war began based on estimates that are now a couple of months old. Even using conservative estimates - it's the most deadly conflict in terms of daily deaths in 21st century warfare. 

Ukraine is about 270 deaths per day including both sides and civilians. 190 a day during the blitz. We haven't seen carnage on this scale since world war 2. 

And just because we all like to compare things to Sudan for some reason. There's about 61 civilian deaths from military action a day there. Although far more from famine.

So there's lots of ways Israel could have chosen to minimise casualties if they'd chosen to do so. 

And I'm really hoping the numbers quoted above make you rethink your position on this. Maybe the press just haven't been very good at explaining quite the level of carnage inside Gaza. 

Or maybe they have - but some people just choose not to listen/understand/believe 

 

4 hours ago, royal white said:

If that’s the case then the rest of the world, especially those supplying arms, can take a different view and question if what they’re doing is right.  As long as those hostages remain hostages Israel will have an excuse. Once they’re handed over it’s a completely different outlook. 

Palestinians in the West Bank aren’t holding Israeli hostages. Do you think what Israel is doing there is defendable? What’s Israel’s excuse there? 

4 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Why doesn't Palestine have a right to sovereignty ? 

Israel exists. They have a nation state. Palestinians across the West Bank and Gaza live in far more fear of having their home ripped to pieces and told to move on. That's not to dismiss some Israeli's live in fear as well. But they are not having their land stolen from them. 

Why are you against a two state solution? 

We all know why.

5 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Why doesn't Palestine have a right to sovereignty ? 

Israel exists. They have a nation state. Palestinians across the West Bank and Gaza live in far more fear of having their home ripped to pieces and told to move on. That's not to dismiss some Israeli's live in fear as well. But they are not having their land stolen from them. 

Why are you against a two state solution? 

You're a tad economical with the truth re Israel living in fear aren't you ?

As for having their land stolen from them.....it's not just land Hamas want is it ?

 

A two state solution would be perfectly acceptable-unless of course its very existence was founded on the premise that it had to deprive Israel's right to exist.

Since foundation its neighbours have fought against its right to exist, buy fortunately a more peaceful acceptance has occurred.

This is proof that a similar approach would be taken with a peaceful attitude from Hamas etc.

As ever, people can, and will keep harking back to the "he did it first" approach, and although that may provide some justification, then others will offer the same from the other side.

Before anything changes, then all parties have to accept the situation as it is now; stop scrapping, accept the fundamentals of peace and mutual rights, and develop from there.

7 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

A two state solution would be perfectly acceptable-unless of course its very existence was founded on the premise that it had to deprive Israel's right to exist.

Since foundation its neighbours have fought against its right to exist, buy fortunately a more peaceful acceptance has occurred.

This is proof that a similar approach would be taken with a peaceful attitude from Hamas etc.

As ever, people can, and will keep harking back to the "he did it first" approach, and although that may provide some justification, then others will offer the same from the other side.

Before anything changes, then all parties have to accept the situation as it is now; stop scrapping, accept the fundamentals of peace and mutual rights, and develop from there.

Absolutely, many folk conveniently forget that certain folk want to obliterate Israel and deprive it of the right to exist, as is clearly stated on the Hamas Covenant. Once they realise this undisputed proof, then the sooner they can actually understand