Obviously there's lot of talk about what went wrong in terms of tactics in yesterdays game but to my mind our problems in such fixtures run much deeper than the present day, Ian Evatt, our current squad. 

Here are the facts: 

• We are six games without a win against Preston dating back to 2001. - that includes three straight home defeats.
• We've won one of 10 league games v Blackpool since we started playing them again in 2010 after a long gap with no fixtures. We've not won at Bloomfield Road since 1977 (14 league and cup fixtures). Admittedly there are a lot of draws in these fixtures but its still not good enough. 
• Our most recent derby win (excluding Accrington, Morecambe, Fleetwood) came against Blackburn at Christmas 2015 when Madine scored a late winner for 1-0 in a dour league game. In December that'll be eight years ago! Before then we can at least say we won and lost fixtures v Blackburn in roughly equal measure.
• We've not won in four fixtures v Burnley and one in six. The last win was in February 2013 - ten years ago. 
• We are now seven games without a win v Wigan (six league games) including some horrible thumpings (5-2, 4-0, 4-0). Eight years since an FA Cup win in early 2015 and nine years since a league win (3-1 at home in 2014). 
• Bury are no longer with us in a recognisable form but anyone with longer memories will know what an utter meal we routinely made of fixtures v them. It sums up the malaise I am trying to describe. In the early 80s and 90s we sustained defeats against 2-3, 2-4, 1-4 and 1-3 home defeats against them of which yesterday's farce had echoes. We went 87 years without a win at Gigg Lane and although there were long gaps without a fixture there were enough for us to have won a few. It took ex Bury player Phil Parkinson to understand what it meant to them so that we finally got over the line with a 0-2 win there in 2016. 

You could lob in Accrington 7 Bolton 1 (and other gormless defeats to Stanley lately) and Stockport 5 Bolton 3 in recent times. 

What the fuck is wrong with us? 

I doubt you'll find another club in English football with such a sloppy attitude to derby matches against sides who want our scalp. It's irritated me for a long time - even more so now I've just spent 20 mins googling the facts. 

We badly need to buck our ideas up in these games. They're out of context of whatever season they're in and we're surrounded by clubs who love to beat us. We need to take the same one-off approach and gear ourselves up properly for such fixtures ... otherwise debacles like yesterday will continue to happen.

 

It was a question to LW, seeing as he seems miffed with over 50s fans.

As for the bigger picture, it is correct that we need to wake up- I would extend that to all decent sides though. Is it a lack of heart or a lack of ability to compete with whole hearted opponents?

Has to come from the coaching staff and training ground- they can see what we can, so have to sort it.

 

9 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

It was a question to LW, seeing as he seems miffed with over 50s fans.

As for the bigger picture, it is correct that we need to wake up- I would extend that to all decent sides though. Is it a lack of heart or a lack of ability to compete with whole hearted opponents?

Has to come from the coaching staff and training ground- they can see what we can, so have to sort it.

 

Its a lack of commitment to matching whole hearted opponents. If sides are better than us and beat us - no complaints, we learn and improve. 

Derby matches are different beasts the world over though. We seem to the only football club that doesn't realise that! 

Well I'm not convinced it's quite so simple as the club seemingly being incapable in Derby games. More of an issue generally. 

Some of the more recent seasons with relatively poor results have coincided with us often being poor generally- we've slipped from premier league grace quite dramatically in that time.

We'll get better as we continue to progress. 

Have we not stuffed United at old Trafford a couple of times in the past ,that helps the depression a bit ,also I don’t just think it’s guts we need it’s also a few more better players ,wigan had  better players from when in championship,that was definatly like playing a team from a league above ,that’s not really evatts fault ,maybe if he was given a better budget he could buy better players !

That's a separate discussion. 

We don't want boom and bust, so living within our means is the only option. It's clear we're making progress and so long as that carries on, we'll be OK.

As for Wigan, yes they've still got some decent players from a higher level.

2 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Why are you bothered by those fans that don't see Wigan as a big rival though?

Folk can't help feel what they do, just human.

For me, it's not specifically that we were playing a big local Derby, but the fact that we were simply a bit biz against another strong team. Again.

We have to improve to get over the promotion hurdle.

You either weren't there yesterday or you're being deliberately obtuse.

It's about recognising what they are bringing. Recognising what they bring every time.

That extra 10% that has us over every single time.

Its instilled in their club from top to bottom that Bolton away is the biggest game of the season bar none, hence they turn-up bang up for it and do a job every single time.

It means everything to their fans, staff and players.

Our over 40-50s like to pretend its not a thing when it fucking should be.

 

6 minutes ago, gonzo said:

You either weren't there yesterday or you're being deliberately obtuse.

It's about recognising what they are bringing. Recognising what they bring every time.

That extra 10% that has us over every single time.

Its instilled in their club from top to bottom that Bolton away is the biggest game of the season bar none, hence they turn-up bang up for it and do a job every single time.

It means everything to their fans, staff and players.

Our over 40-50s like to pretend its not a thing when it fucking should be.

 

Exactly.

It’s been a tough one to take has this one.

You'd have thought Peter Atherton's presence might have given the club itself some insight in to the psyche at Wigan. Doesn't seen to have happened.

11 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Why are you bothered by those fans that don't see Wigan as a big rival though?

Folk can't help feel what they do, just human.

For me, it's not specifically that we were playing a big local Derby, but the fact that we were simply a bit biz against another strong team. Again.

We have to improve to get over the promotion hurdle.

Yes don't worry, I'm not accusing them of not being human 😂

It's hard to put into words to be honest, it ended up bothering me more after the result, so it will no doubt be mixed up with those emotions. And yes, it's a concerning pattern now in big games. 

I love what the older posters bring to this thread and enjoy scrolling through and hearing about games that were before my day, then watching on YouTube. But the dismissing of tinpot Wigan as a rivalry doesn't represent where we're at. I was delighted they went down and I love seeing them get beat. More than I do Man Utd. I had that hatred of Man U engrained from an early age and still enjoy seeing them get beat. But with the changing premier league I no longer care like I used to. Ended up not really minding them beating Saudi Arabia in the cup final earlier in the year. I'm sure the younger fans that have rejuvenated this club probably don't share the same hatred as the older ones. But that could all change if we're back up in the top league. Wigan are clearly up there for now and we'd be daft to not get pumped up in the terraces for future games. 

I guess in answer to your question, it shouldn't really bother me. But it all seemed a bit out of touch and it's clear the players aren't stepping up in the same way Wigan are. They're not going away like we keep saying they are. 

The Wigan players, and I expect the Blackpool players, will have it drilled into them by fans, locals and the media just how important it is to beat Bolton.

It seems our players/management have suffered a blind spot in this regard for a long time.

Maybe our time at the top has sucked players into a belief that our local rivals truly are Man United.

On the pitch, United are no more our rivals right now than Galatasaray are.

Wigan are tinpot. Blackpool are fuck all.

But we can only say that and mean it when we put them to bed every time they cross our path.

On (and off) the pitch this weekend, Wigan had us. That needs to stop.

18 hours ago, captainmed said:

We always fuck up big home games with a big crowd/away following, family fun day and local derbies etc.

To lose consecutive home league games 4-0 to Wigan is just totally and utterly unacceptable at every level.

Bottle merchants the lot of them. 

Some serious soul searching is needed about the manner of yesterdays collapse. 

 

Whats also worrying is Evatt doesnt seem up for it either!

11 hours ago, lofthouse said:

Have we not stuffed United at old Trafford a couple of times in the past ,that helps the depression a bit ,also I don’t just think it’s guts we need it’s also a few more better players ,wigan had  better players from when in championship,that was definatly like playing a team from a league above ,that’s not really evatts fault ,maybe if he was given a better budget he could buy better players !

He as spent much more than Wigan have spent, and as a far better wage budget than Wigan. Dont think thats the issue here, its the way we rolled over, pulling out of tackles, powder puff challenges, no fight, no spirit! Management need to address these issues quickly.

Aren't we just shit in ALL the big games? Whenever we have a bumper Home crowd for a massive game, we seem to bottle it regardless of the opposition.

And of course Wigan are currently our rivals. They're in the same League as us, are 10 miles down the road, and hate our guts with a passion. If that doesn't make them 'rivals' nothing does.

14 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Aren't we just shit in ALL the big games? Whenever we have a bumper Home crowd for a massive game, we seem to bottle it regardless of the opposition.

And of course Wigan are currently our rivals. They're in the same League as us, are 10 miles down the road, and hate our guts with a passion. If that doesn't make them 'rivals' nothing does.

All local clubs are rivals when in the same league. We bottled it Saturday and it’s infuriating; leaving before the half time whistle is the first time ever for me but I was so pissed off after the ref keeping his cards in his pocket then watching us gift goals and back out of challenges 

1 hour ago, Spider said:

The Wigan players, and I expect the Blackpool players, will have it drilled into them by fans, locals and the media just how important it is to beat Bolton.

It seems our players/management have suffered a blind spot in this regard for a long time.

Maybe our time at the top has sucked players into a belief that our local rivals truly are Man United.

On the pitch, United are no more our rivals right now than Galatasaray are.

Wigan are tinpot. Blackpool are fuck all.

But we can only say that and mean it when we put them to bed every time they cross our path.

On (and off) the pitch this weekend, Wigan had us. That needs to stop.

Derbies in the foreseeable future will be even more difficult now they know they have our number

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

Aren't we just shit in ALL the big games? Whenever we have a bumper Home crowd for a massive game, we seem to bottle it regardless of the opposition.

And of course Wigan are currently our rivals. They're in the same League as us, are 10 miles down the road, and hate our guts with a passion. If that doesn't make them 'rivals' nothing does.

Not always 

Did what we had to do v Forest and Peterborough on the last days of the season 

But in both cases we should have been home and dry well before the last game

The Sunderland bumming proves we can turn up.

Paulhanley is definitely onto something about derbies though. Removing emotion from team talks may be the culprit (obviously guessing here), but the players and staff certainly need to get more pumped up.

28 minutes ago, Zico said:

Not always 

Did what we had to do v Forest and Peterborough on the last days of the season 

But in both cases we should have been home and dry well before the last game

True. But we also tended to get the better of Blackburn during the Prem years, and as has been mentioned previously we gave Manchester United a couple of bloody noses against all odds. Always exceptions. Think Saturday has blurred a lot of memories, including mine.

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by Cheese

18 minutes ago, Spider said:

The Sunderland bumming proves we can turn up.

Paulhanley is definitely onto something about derbies though. Removing emotion from team talks may be the culprit (obviously guessing here), but the players and staff certainly need to get more pumped up.

Yeh, in the end you've got to respond to clubs making summat of it, even if that summat is not naturally reciprocated.

Cost me a bloody fortune as I did two nights in the Prem Inn as well. Money well spent ☹️

After nipping to Tesco at fill time for some butties, back at the Prem Inn looked like a war zone with the amount of police. Next morning it was all the check out staff talked about, though one did ask me "if I was here for the Chess". Turns out Sunday had some chess tournament, and obviously I exude the look of intelligence that led her to conclude that was what I was there for. I said to her, if you think yesterday was bad wait until the chess lads kick off...😄

 

15 minutes ago, Cheese said:

True. But we also tended to get the better of Blackburn during the Prem years, and as has been mentioned previously we gave Manchester United a couple of bloody noses against all odds. Always exceptions. Think Saturday has blurred a lot of memories, including mine.

Had the better of city quite a few times as well, including winning the title at their ground 

Best Preston twice when it really mattered as well to get promoted 

The bottle jobs always tend to come when we've been on a good run and a big crowd turn out, often when tickets are cheap 

We have such a game coming up soon v promotion contenders Peterborough 

 

22 hours ago, Lostock Whites said:

I couldn't disagree more with the whole "play the game not the occasion", Wigan were completely up for it yesterday, shithoused a 4-0 win not playing great football but just pressing us, going in hard, whilst our players were pulling out of 50/50 tackles.

We can complain about the tactical side, but I think the reason why yesterday was so catastrophically bad was because the players just looked they weren't arsed. Even if one of just did a big tackle and for set off, at least it would've shown that they cared, but there wasn't, we just faded away like dust.

Pretty sure Evatt said pre match something similar. To the effect of you have to embrace the emotion and be fired up for it.

It’s disappointing we allowed them to bully us physically again because our squad isn’t a bunch of lightweights, and their team isn’t as physical as it was 2 years ago. 
 

Plenty of opportunities to set it right this season but we must see improvement in these big games. 

14 hours ago, gonzo said:

You either weren't there yesterday or you're being deliberately obtuse.

It's about recognising what they are bringing. Recognising what they bring every time.

That extra 10% that has us over every single time.

Its instilled in their club from top to bottom that Bolton away is the biggest game of the season bar none, hence they turn-up bang up for it and do a job every single time.

It means everything to their fans, staff and players.

Our over 40-50s like to pretend its not a thing when it fucking should be.

 

Not really anything to do with what I said, except that you can't change what people feel. Whether you, me or anyone thinks otherwise.

Nothing obtuse about my comments whatsoever, as I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments that we're too soft.

I'm quite sure it hurt everyone that went; no one has said otherwise.

But for me, it's bigger than just a big Derby game, as I've said plenty of times.

And no, I wasn't there- as detailed previously. Didn't have to be to know we were shite,timid etc.

6 hours ago, Cheese said:

True. But we also tended to get the better of Blackburn during the Prem years, and as has been mentioned previously we gave Manchester United a couple of bloody noses against all odds. Always exceptions. Think Saturday has blurred a lot of memories, including mine.

That's not right. We didn't beat Blackburn at home for the first nine of our 11 seasons in the top flight. It was only when Holden got that late winner that we put that little hoodoo to bed. Then we beat the 2-1 in the game after Muamba collapsed. Home results flowed against them in the Championship thereafter.

Overall though, from 1995-2018 Blackburn beat us a bit more than we beat them and similar in the Prem alone. Not a jinx, but certainly not a walkover for us, not even close.

23 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

That's not right. We didn't beat Blackburn at home for the first nine of our 11 seasons in the top flight. It was only when Holden got that late winner that we put that little hoodoo to bed. Then we beat the 2-1 in the game after Muamba collapsed. Home results flowed against them in the Championship thereafter.

Overall though, from 1995-2018 Blackburn beat us a bit more than we beat them and similar in the Prem alone. Not a jinx, but certainly not a walkover for us, not even close.

Didn't say we ever "walked over" them. But we made a game of it. Think you might be extrapolating a bit because Saturday was absolutely horrific. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. And we do appear to have a shit record against local rivals (although that depends on who you consider are our "rivals", and what time period you choose to consider). They all up their game because we are a HUGE scalp at this level, and I agree it's something we should take more seriously and try to counteract. Saturday was a fucking piss take.

Edited August 21, 20232 yr by Cheese

Aye. Stats can be used to show whatever you want.

Want isn't debatable is the performance.