As suggested by @Johnnyrotten splitting this off from the transfer chat as a place for formation nerds like me to discuss tactics.

@wanderer1984 I agree 343 is a really weird formation. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 teams playing it successfully in the last 20ish years - Brazil 2002 and Chelsea under Conte.

Brazil 2002 had Cafu and Roberto Carlos as the wing backs.... And a front 3 that was ridiculous, so don't really work as a comparison to any other team.

However Chelsea under Conte is interesting. The 3 at the back helped to not expose David Luiz when he'd invariably wander. And the wing backs were completely different, Alonso was previously a full back, and Moses previously a winger. And Chelsea would play Azpilicueta at RCB to cover Moses.

So @Rival Son I'm not sure we need 2 primarily attacking wing backs to make it work. Schon as more attacking and Cogley more defensive could be fine.

The bit we are missing is in midfield though. Both those teams had pure enforcers in the centre. Chelsea had Matic and Kanye, and Brazil had Gilberto Silva and Kleberson (more a hard worker but not a ball player definitely). This is where we seem way off it with Thomason and Sheehan. I like both but they're not enforcers.

1 minute ago, tomski said:

Collins is our best player in my opinion. He’s the only one scoring that goal with that finish last night. Where does Lolos come in

It’s a wonder we’ve been so shite with such an embarrassment of riches 😂 

I remember posting on here ages ago that I liked the look of McAtee, but it’s hard to see where him and Collins fit in, especially as I think Vic has done really well recently

1 minute ago, tomski said:

Collins is our best player in my opinion. He’s the only one scoring that goal with that finish last night. Where does Lolos come in

Forgot about him.

CMG too.

Let's play 6 up front.

10 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Forgot about him.

CMG too.

Let's play 6 up front.

Fucking he’ll CMG. Forgotten about him. LWB. Sorted

3 hours ago, RUREADY2ROLL said:

Think all the summer signings have been poor so far

Not just poorer but a few came  with injury issues tutu dodgy knee lasted a couple of games farino was out injured when we signed him and looks like he will be out again with a hamstring injury . Lolos probably been a bit unlucky poor challenge at orient . Matete and arfield have missed games and we’re  10 games in . On top of our usual sick notes forrester , jones , Gomes squad looks thin 

19 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Then we have Collins.

My fear is we've recruited for this silly 3 up top shite and now figured it doesn't work.

Or we expected Vic to leave.

I'm not convinced our summer recruitment was based on the new formation. We've just got a better bench (on paper), albeit very top heavy.

I doubt we'd have recruited as many players capable of playing as a 10 if we didn't have the box midfield in mind

Our Summer Recruitment was based on Bingo balls same as it was last season........Name our top targets then bring in six leftfield players

Keep aiming for top Scottish Premiership talent and end up with Someone from Austria/Germamy/Hungerian/Dutch div 2

Who are injured and need half a season to get right

8 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I doubt we'd have recruited as many players capable of playing as a 10 if we didn't have the box midfield in mind

If we signed them purely on the basis that they were 'capable of playing as a 10', it didn't go very well.

10 minutes ago, Cheese said:

If we signed them purely on the basis that they were 'capable of playing as a 10', it didn't go very well.

No, it didn't

I might have missed it at the time but when Evatt was talking about what McAtee would bring it didn't seem to extend beyond him having been a pain in the arse to us at Barnsley and giving us a bit more of that in our play. 

For what it's worth, I quite like him and he's got plenty to offer, wants the ball and wants to take responsibility for doing something with it. Having been indulged by the Board to spend big on bringing him in Evatt needs to work out how to get the best out of him, and indeed Collins.

By other L1 club standards we do have an apparent embarrassment of forward riches, using them to best effect is Evatt's challenge. Not sure that just having the two front twos of Vic / Dion and Collins / McAtee is that, though not sure either whether any different combo of two from that four would work better. 

I wouldn't mind seeing McAtee as the most forward midfielder/no10, in behind Vic and either of Dion or Collins

Of course we'd recruit for a formation we intended to play. Not doing would make no fucking sense.

2 hours ago, Cheese said:

I'm not convinced our summer recruitment was based on the new formation. We've just got a better bench (on paper), albeit very top heavy.

Given our forward options on the bench at Wembley we definitely needed strengthening there 

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

Then we have Collins.

My fear is we've recruited for this silly 3 up top shite and now figured it doesn't work.

Or we expected Vic to leave.

3 up top could have worked but not with Dion in the middle, or with a 2 man midfield.

I would have had to be 433 with Vic up top.

19 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

Given our forward options on the bench at Wembley we definitely needed strengthening there 

Indeed.

29 minutes ago, Stig said:

3 up top could have worked but not with Dion in the middle, or with a 2 man midfield.

I would have had to be 433 with Vic up top.

Yep. There's no team on planet earth plays with 3 center backs and 3 strikers.

Think our Ian overdid the weightloss jabs. 

2 hours ago, masi 51 said:

Our Summer Recruitment was based on Bingo balls same as it was last season........Name our top targets then bring in six leftfield players

Keep aiming for top Scottish Premiership talent and end up with Someone from Austria/Germamy/Hungerian/Dutch div 2

Who are injured and need half a season to get right

Wasn't aware that any of the rumoured targets had a hierarchy. 

We got McAtee, who we apparently wanted.

Not sure that the Scottish players were bid for/turned down- very little was confirmed either way; as it should be.

Simply don't understand your reasoning behind the bingo balls suggestion.

Unless you have specific insight, then we don't know the ins and outs.

2 hours ago, ianofcleveleys said:

wouldn't mind seeing McAtee as the most forward midfielder/no10, in behind Vic and either of Dion or Collins

We tried that at half time at Charlton it didn’t end well .
 The only way we can play 3 of them is if we scrap 5 at the back . Collins  played on the wing at Bristol rovers last season so you could play all 3 in a 442 but that’s not happening 

Edited September 26, 20241 yr by Farnywhite

32 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Wasn't aware that any of the rumoured targets had a hierarchy. 

We got McAtee, who we apparently wanted.

Not sure that the Scottish players were bid for/turned down- very little was confirmed either way; as it should be.

Simply don't understand your reasoning behind the bingo balls suggestion.

Unless you have specific insight, then we don't know the ins and outs.

He's probably referring to Dembele or that lad from Kilmarnock or wherever it was.

Apparently because we couldn't sign them, Evatt and his staff played bingo in their office to see who we could sign instead.

Eyes down look in. 

It was McAtee for a full line and Lolos for a full house.

Two little ducks for Desmond obviously

 

 

13 minutes ago, gonzo said:

He's probably referring to Dembele or that lad from Kilmarnock or wherever it was.

Apparently because we couldn't sign them, Evatt and his staff played bingo in their office to see who we could sign instead.

Eyes down look in. 

It was McAtee for a full line and Lolos for a full house.

Exactly. 

I'm sure they were on the list of targets, but but we don't know what priorities there were, but we can be sure that Evatt was aware he may not get every one. That's football, and I'm glad he got the ones he did.

I reckon the squad is stronger now for it- we just need them to come together, especially now the 2 in midfield has bitten the dust.

On another point, we see the fitness/strength of Arsenal's players, and how difficult they made it, but I think we forget that the technical differences play a big part in that- if ours could control and move the ball around approaching what premier teams do, then that make an opponent far more wary when it comes to pressing etc.

I've watched the goal where Forino loses it, but it's also brilliant by their player.

Forino has a little look- he knows opponents are closing, and sees a teammates to his right. Sets his mind on the pass. The opponent sees him look and actually adjusts his run; doesn't go directly at Forino, but where the ball is going to be played.

If, for example, that was a city player, with great awareness and skill, he would happily telegraph the pass with a little look, then not play it, but take the ball and turn.

That subtle but key component of top class players, that we simply don't have. We shouldn't expect to have neither, which I think fans forget at times.

Just need to get up, and start the next chapter.

18 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

On another point, we see the fitness/strength of Arsenal's players, and how difficult they made it, but I think we forget that the technical differences play a big part in that- if ours could control and move the ball around approaching what premier teams do, then that make an opponent far more wary when it comes to pressing etc.

Noticed that too, aside from their obvious technical abilities, the pace, strength and power, even in the young ones like Nwaneri, was something else. They weren't lightweight by any means. At our level it's rare that a technically gifted player also has the physique to match it. If they had both they'd be Rice or Rodri

I've often though it's one of the starkest differences between our league and the leagues above

Even players in the Championship tend to be fairly significantly bigger, quicker, stronger, etc.

I'd argue at our level pressing div 3 players into mistakes is more profitable than beating the press. That's where we should have been evolving last season. Not to copy Derby who were very direct, but be more like Pompey who played at the back when it was safe, but then got it forward quickly whenever it wasn't.

Evatt plays too high risk football for this level of player.

This Luke Matheson turned into prime Kyle Walker over night or summet?

Fuck me the lads barely kicked a ball for us.

That Racist Nonce and his merry gaggle of gimps are banging the same drum masurbate51 was beating today.

He's crap and we are probably saving a sqaud space for a loan if required.

 

1 hour ago, gonzo said:

This Luke Matheson turned into prime Kyle Walker over night or summet?

Fuck me the lads barely kicked a ball for us.

That Racist Nonce and his merry gaggle of gimps are banging the same drum masurbate51 was beating today.

He's crap and we are probably saving a sqaud space for a loan if required.

 

Errrm I think you'll find this is tactics chat