As suggested by @Johnnyrotten splitting this off from the transfer chat as a place for formation nerds like me to discuss tactics.

@wanderer1984 I agree 343 is a really weird formation. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 teams playing it successfully in the last 20ish years - Brazil 2002 and Chelsea under Conte.

Brazil 2002 had Cafu and Roberto Carlos as the wing backs.... And a front 3 that was ridiculous, so don't really work as a comparison to any other team.

However Chelsea under Conte is interesting. The 3 at the back helped to not expose David Luiz when he'd invariably wander. And the wing backs were completely different, Alonso was previously a full back, and Moses previously a winger. And Chelsea would play Azpilicueta at RCB to cover Moses.

So @Rival Son I'm not sure we need 2 primarily attacking wing backs to make it work. Schon as more attacking and Cogley more defensive could be fine.

The bit we are missing is in midfield though. Both those teams had pure enforcers in the centre. Chelsea had Matic and Kanye, and Brazil had Gilberto Silva and Kleberson (more a hard worker but not a ball player definitely). This is where we seem way off it with Thomason and Sheehan. I like both but they're not enforcers.

Randell Williams as a left back. 🤣

That back four would get hammered.

Edited January 11, 20251 yr by Rival Son

11 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

Wish Mr ego and chief would play this:

Rather play the team today than that travesty of a formation . D- must try harder. 

12 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

Wish Mr ego and chief would play this:

Highly doubt a change of formation would make any difference whatsoever.

11 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Highly doubt a change of formation would make any difference whatsoever.

3 in the middle would be a start . 

When a team needs to "go back to basics/square one" , first thing is to get the defence sorted . Stop conceding goals and work forwards from there . Stop the rot etc. Grind out nil nils , nick the odd one nil and build . Certainly not go all Kevin Keegan and over load the front thinking "well we will just score more than them then" . 

3 minutes ago, Krimzon said:

3 in the middle would be a start . 

When a team needs to "go back to basics/square one" , first thing is to get the defence sorted . Stop conceding goals and work forwards from there . Stop the rot etc. Grind out nil nils , nick the odd one nil and build . Certainly not go all Kevin Keegan and over load the front thinking "well we will just score more than them then" . 

We aren't going to get that mentality in games when we're playing teams below us.  That worked to an extent at Wycombe - 1 of only 2 games we've played this season when a 0-0 would have been an acceptable target pre-match (Brum the other).  We can't be going into a game v Cambridge saying "right lads, clean sheet at all costs, get a 0-0 if that's all we can do".  Same v Charlton.  The "backs to basics" approach is normally for teams in the bottom 4 or 5 scratching around for draws and an occasional 1-0 win.  We won 2 of our last 3 games before today - we aren't desperate for any type of result, because we've spent millions, we are just desperate to beat anyone half decent.

14 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

We aren't going to get that mentality in games when we're playing teams below us.  That worked to an extent at Wycombe - 1 of only 2 games we've played this season when a 0-0 would have been an acceptable target pre-match (Brum the other).  We can't be going into a game v Cambridge saying "right lads, clean sheet at all costs, get a 0-0 if that's all we can do".  Same v Charlton.  The "backs to basics" approach is normally for teams in the bottom 4 or 5 scratching around for draws and an occasional 1-0 win.  We won 2 of our last 3 games before today - we aren't desperate for any type of result, because we've spent millions, we are just desperate to beat anyone half decent.

Hmmm , I disagree . Pragmatism needs to be the key for the rest of this season as realistically its gone.  Going all out to beat teams we deem to be "below us " whether league standings , size  or whatever isnt working . We are not going to go down but a la Exeter at home it doesnt always work . 

What do they say ? Attacks win cups , defences win leagues ? 

He went back to 3 in the middle after the Huddersfield defeat and it worked against reading. Got a few wins then thought he’d go back to a 2 with an attacking mid/forward. A solid 3 would mean we’d compete and be one more solid surely. 

He also switched from a back 5 to a 4 when we were in league 2 then switched to a 5 when we were shit in league one. Surely he can see another switch might work again. 

2 hours ago, Zog1 said:

Wish Mr ego and chief would play this:

If Gethin was a dog, he's have been put down by now, his legs have gone.
Santos would be a disaster in a four
Johnston has forgotten how to read the game and Willimas isn't defensively good enough to play LB.

10 minutes ago, Traf said:

If Gethin was a dog, he's have been put down by now, his legs have gone.
Santos would be a disaster in a four
Johnston has forgotten how to read the game and Willimas isn't defensively good enough to play LB.

Have they or has it been the way IE has them playing that's causing that?

Willimas isn't defensively good enough is probably correct, although he has played that position before i believe for Hull. Keep in mind neither were Pedersen or Gardner, it's temporary we don't currently have a player called Mr Agreessive either lol.

15 minutes ago, Traf said:

If Gethin was a dog, he's have been put down by now, his legs have gone.
Santos would be a disaster in a four
Johnston has forgotten how to read the game and Willimas isn't defensively good enough to play LB.

 

Which in itself shows what a mess of a squad this is. Can't play this shit formation, can't play any others either.

Rico being hailed as the best centre back in the division, but not being able to play in a back four sums up this team. All the pound shop Guardiola concepts in the world won't help you if you can't do the basics.

26 minutes ago, Traf said:

If Gethin was a dog, he's have been put down by now, his legs have gone.
Santos would be a disaster in a four
Johnston has forgotten how to read the game and Willimas isn't defensively good enough to play LB.

Santos did play in a four in league 2

Johnston has been horrific this season

1 minute ago, superkev said:

Santos did play in a four in league 2

MJ Williams looked good in League 2

9 minutes ago, Traf said:

MJ Williams looked good in League 2

He’s not been in the team of the season 3 times though

Every part of the team has been "Upgraded" aside from the defence, still pretty much what we had in League 2

Santos - Having a mare atm, seems to be a different player to last season

Johnston - hasn't been the same since his injury, but two long term injuries in 2 seasons will do that

Jones - as above, great at going forward but defensively a liability

JDC - our only out and out wingback, can't tackle 

Forrester - still very raw with a lot of potential

Toal - as above, still learning his trade but needs someone to learn from. Injured a lot!

Schon: A Winger... not a wingback. 

Williams - A winger - struggled with Thomassons erratic playing today. 

 

11 minutes ago, only1swanny said:

Every part of the team has been "Upgraded" aside from the defence, still pretty much what we had in League 2

Santos - Having a mare atm, seems to be a different player to last season

Johnston - hasn't been the same since his injury, but two long term injuries in 2 seasons will do that

Jones - as above, great at going forward but defensively a liability

JDC - our only out and out wingback, can't tackle 

Forrester - still very raw with a lot of potential

Toal - as above, still learning his trade but needs someone to learn from. Injured a lot!

Schon: A Winger... not a wingback. 

Williams - A winger - struggled with Thomassons erratic playing today. 

 

Forrester showed today he’s not up to it. Shrugged off the ball 4 times. Weak as piss. 

Just now, superkev said:

Forrester showed today he’s not up to it. Shrugged off the ball 4 times. Weak as piss. 

In fact. Not just today

3 hours ago, Cheese said:

Highly doubt a change of formation would make any difference whatsoever.

We could keep the formation and change the bloke picking the side and I’m convinced we’d improve. 

13 minutes ago, superkev said:

Forrester showed today he’s not up to it. Shrugged off the ball 4 times. Weak as piss. 

Their third. Fuck me, the bloke just handed him off like he wasn’t there. 

7 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

We could keep the formation and change the bloke picking the side and I’m convinced we’d improve. 

Probably.

1 hour ago, Zog1 said:

Have they or has it been the way IE has them playing that's causing that?

Willimas isn't defensively good enough is probably correct, although he has played that position before i believe for Hull. Keep in mind neither were Pedersen or Gardner, it's temporary we don't currently have a player called Mr Agreessive either lol.

Pedersen was a disaster at left back .

Gardner would have been a fuckin legend if he played ball boy or water carrier. 

29 minutes ago, superkev said:

Forrester showed today he’s not up to it. Shrugged off the ball 4 times. Weak as piss. 

Id rather have Forrester in the back 3 than Jones . But in an ideal world the 3 would be Johnston Santos Toal ....until we get better defenders. 

Santos has lost a yard of pace since his injury and Johnston has forgotten how to pass since his . 

We have been very unlucky with injuries but its a shit kickers league , bound to happen A LOT . 

33 minutes ago, Krimzon said:

Pedersen was a disaster at left back .

Gardner would have been a fuckin legend if he played ball boy or water carrier. 

We actually did reasonably well with Pedersen at left back if memory serves me right

Ben Haim at left back was a war crime

28 minutes ago, Krimzon said:

Pedersen was a disaster at left back .

Gardner would have been a fuckin legend if he played ball boy or water carrier. 

Didn't we beat both Newcastle and West Ham with Pedersen at left back?

As i did mention above this would only be a temp solution.