just a quickie ,cos its Sunday night and we won yesterday.

A  god ?

any God 

then prove it !

I dont believe 

1 minute ago, Not in Crawley said:

And there we go, full circle.

Thanks for the apt demonstration of the point 😊

I think you're confusing rationalism and intelligence with a 'movement'.

2 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I think you're confusing rationalism and intelligence with a 'movement'.

No, I don't think I am. I'm simply questioning your position on this topic as being close to what you claim to dislike, and pointing out the value, and indeed human need, for the spiritual. I'm not questioning your intelligence nor am I denying the importance of rationalism.

2 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Indeed, the New Atheism thing, which despite not knowing about Cheese demonstrates a lot of, had real problems with its secular rigidity that does dismiss, as I say, our history and humanity and can lead to forms of religious intolerance that are just as unpalatable as forced religious doctrine.

I think most of them have either rowed back on or softened their stance in the intervening years. Apart from Hitchens, due to being dead and therefore closer to the truth about the matter than any of us. Or not. Depending on your point of view.

Even Hitchens recognised the value of religious architecture and acknowledged that works of art like the Sistine Chapel wouldn't have been possible without religious belief

I'd have loved to know what he'd have made of politics/the world since his death and what his views would've been if he'd been alive today

10 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I think you're confusing rationalism and intelligence with a 'movement'.

He's not

7 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

No, I don't think I am. I'm simply questioning your position on this topic as being close to what you claim to dislike, and pointing out the value, and indeed human need, for the spiritual. I'm not questioning your intelligence nor am I denying the importance of rationalism.

What is your understanding of my position on this topic, and how is it close to "what i claim to dislike"?

You can be 'spiritual' without believing fucking nonsense.

5 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

He's not

Explain.

4 minutes ago, Cheese said:

What is your understanding of my position on this topic, and how is it close to "what i claim to dislike"?

You can be 'spiritual' without believing fucking nonsense.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that God is 'fucking nonsense' therefore religion is irrational.

I'm just testing your position and it does seem a little inflexible, much like religious dotcrine lesding to zealotry. Hence my original point. 

Believers or not, I hope none of you burn any religious texts in public because if someone complains GMP and the courts will be on your case 

15 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Even Hitchens recognised the value of religious architecture and acknowledged that works of art like the Sistine Chapel wouldn't have been possible without religious belief

I'd have loved to know what he'd have made of politics/the world since his death and what his views would've been if he'd been alive today

It would be interesting, I'm.sure he'd have loved a good joust with both the populist explosion and those in middle ground liberal western thought.

Sistine chapel, even Algebra from The House of Wisdom - humanity is founded upon beliefs and how we negotiate our self awareness and place in the world. 

Just because I'm not religious doesn't mean I'm willing to dismiss it's important, nay vital, role in our world.

3 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that God is 'fucking nonsense' therefore religion is irrational.

I'm just testing your position and it does seem a little inflexible, much like religious dotcrine lesding to zealotry. Hence my original point. 

That is indeed my position, until someone provides some evidence to make me think otherwise.

Just to clarify your position - is my purple monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks fucking nonsense? Or do you think it is possible He exists, and therefore remain indifferent?

14 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Explain.

Not speaking for anyone , but, basically 

religious zealots : “ you must believe in this God or you are a fucking idiot who will be cast into hell” 

( paraphrased the scriptures somewhat there) 

Athiest zealot: God doesn’t exist until you can prove it and if you can’t your a fucking idiot who believes in sky fairies 

 

Both equally  as sure in their belief that people who don’t share the same are wrong and even stupid 

2 minutes ago, Cheese said:

That is indeed my position, until someone provides some evidence to make me think otherwise.

Just to clarify your position - is my purple monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks fucking nonsense? Or do you think it is possible He exists, and therefore remain indifferent?

Right, again, so we're back to where we started.

To answer your last question would be to misinterpret the point I was making about inflexible atheistic thoughts and faith.

Just now, fatolive said:

Not speaking for anyone , but, basically 

religious zealots : “ you must believe in this God or you are a fucking idiot who will be cast into hell” 

( paraphrased the scriptures somewhat there) 

Athiest zealot: God doesn’t exist until you can prove it and if you can’t your a fucking idiot who believes in sky fairies 

 

Both equally  as sure in their belief that people who don’t share the same are wrong and even stupid 

And therefore both quite irrational in their own way.

8 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

And therefore both quite irrational in their own way.

Both equally irrational as neither have the proof they demand off the other . 
 

 

22 minutes ago, fatolive said:

Not speaking for anyone , but, basically 

religious zealots : “ you must believe in this God or you are a fucking idiot who will be cast into hell” 

( paraphrased the scriptures somewhat there) 

Athiest zealot: God doesn’t exist until you can prove it and if you can’t your a fucking idiot who believes in sky fairies 

 

Both equally  as sure in their belief that people who don’t share the same are wrong and even stupid 

They're not equal though are they, as one would change their mind if shown some evidence, while the other will continue to believe the same thing IN SPITE of the lack of evidence. Atheism isn't a 'belief'. It's a lack of belief. Do you believe there is a chance my monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks exists? If not, why not?

Edited February 13, 20251 yr by Cheese

19 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Right, again, so we're back to where we started.

To answer your last question would be to misinterpret the point I was making about inflexible atheistic thoughts and faith.

You can't answer because you know it's ridiculous.

19 minutes ago, fatolive said:

Not speaking for anyone , but, basically 

religious zealots : “ you must believe in this God or you are a fucking idiot who will be cast into hell” 

( paraphrased the scriptures somewhat there) 

Athiest zealot: God doesn’t exist until you can prove it and if you can’t your a fucking idiot who believes in sky fairies 

 

Both equally  as sure in their belief that people who don’t share the same are wrong and even stupid 

thought it was pretty obvious myself

still, the debate that followed has entertained me whilst having my lunch

10 minutes ago, fatolive said:

Both equally irrational as neither have the proof they demand off the other . 

Then you should consider joining my purple monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks cult. It is equally as plausible as any other religion.

5 minutes ago, Cheese said:

They're not equal though are they, as one would change their mind if shown some evidence, while the other will continue to believe the same thing IN SPITE of the lack of evidence. Atheism isn't a 'belief'. It's a lack of belief. Do you believe there is a chance my monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks exists? If not, why not?

You haven’t told me about him . What’s his name ? 

 

3 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Then you should consider joining my purple monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks cult. It is equally as plausible as any other religion.

So if it is, as you say, equally plausible you’d have no problem with  people believing in it and wouldn’t call them stupid ? . 

 

6 minutes ago, fatolive said:

You haven’t told me about him . What’s his name ? 

So if it is, as you say, equally plausible you’d have no problem with  people believing in it and wouldn’t call them stupid ? . 

He's called Gareth.

I have no no problem at all with people believing in Him, or any other God, as I've said repeatedly. It's when those people try to impose their beliefs on others, or claim their beliefs shouldn't be questioned, that I find a problem.

Which of the thousands of God's do you believe in? Why not my purple monkey God called Gareth with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks?

Edited February 13, 20251 yr by Cheese

Atheism is a conscious belief that there there is no god 

15 minutes ago, Cheese said:

You can't answer because you know it's ridiculous.

Now that's an RW level of answer, which you probably know, as it misses the point that I was making about the inherent flaw in the so called rational intolerance of any faith based belief system, and in doing such denies what is a fundamental part of the make up of humanity as a species and uts role in our development and progress.

It's too dogmatic for my taste, even as a life long atheist.

Just now, Cheese said:

He's called Gareth.

I have no no problem at all with people believing in Him, or any other God, as I've said repeatedly. It's when those people try to impose their beliefs on others, or claim their beliefs shouldn't be questioned, that I find a problem.

Which of the thousands of God's do you believe in? Why not my purple monkey God with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks?

You’ve been watching too many Ricky Gervais clips and using his logic. 
Bad as parroting a prophet that, proving Crawleys point again. 
 

my discussion isn’t about God or not, it’s about people’s views on what people think at both ends of the scale . 
 

you have done a cracking job of proving Crawleys position right . 

1 minute ago, Cheese said:

He's called Gareth.

I have no no problem at all with people believing in Him, or any other God, as I've said repeatedly. It's when those people try to impose their beliefs on others, or claim their beliefs shouldn't be questioned, that I find a problem.

Which of the thousands of God's do you believe in? Why not my purple monkey God called Gareth with wings of steel and 3 massive cocks?

But a non belief in God shouldn't be questioned otherwise its 'fucking nonsense' and irrational?

Seems you might be in danger of dissapearing up your own rhetorical fundament here.

1 hour ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Even Hitchens recognised the value of religious architecture and acknowledged that works of art like the Sistine Chapel wouldn't have been possible without religious belief

I'd have loved to know what he'd have made of politics/the world since his death and what his views would've been if he'd been alive today

An interesting view in that first paragraph. 

Art, and craft work may have been different, but still there.

As for the buildings themselves; old churches and cathedrals are incredibly atmospheric/spiritual places for me.

If they provide a place for quiet reflection etc for people then all is well.

Whether they have to be "religious" places per se is a funny one- places like stonehenge still attract many, and maybe they're just newer versions of it.

Maybe religion and spirituality are very similar in their foundation, but with different approaches on top.