BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I think you'll get a few saying "in" and plenty keeping quiet....I doubt there will be many at all who openly say "out" Out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 Many thanks  Unfortunately it's risen more questions than given answers  What do the current Military bods think?  Doesn't really give any specific reasons why the former military leaders think we should stay either.  NATO's fine as far as I can see, until I see something contrary to the fact And you have every right However, I'd take their views on our safety over yours (nowt personal like) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 And you have every right  However, I'd take their views on our safety over yours (nowt personal like) Nowt personal taken.  I just don't find that article a balanced representation of views though. As I say, what's the view of current Military bods? How many former military bods think we're better out? & why?  No disrespect to those putting their names to that view, but how relevant is their previous experience to current day? Some of them went back to the Second World War! & Arden!  Would just like to know the views from all, old, present, in or outs. I can't make a balanced decision on that one article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Nowt personal taken. Â I just don't find that article a balanced representation of views though. As I say, what's the view of current Military bods? How many former military bods think we're better out? & why? Â No disrespect to those putting their names to that view, but how relevant is their previous experience to current day? Some of them went back to the Second World War! & Arden! Â Would just like to know the views from all, old, present, in or outs. I can't make a balanced decision on that one article. To be fair it doesn't purport to be a balanced representation of views; it's reporting that some old blokes that know a fair bit about national security reckon we will be safer in EU Â I'd say that their experience gives them a certain amount of credibility; why do ex footballers end up being pundits? ;-) Â What if there are no more credible voices on defence and/or nobody from that arena says "out"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whites man Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I don't think leaving the EU will affect national security in any way. There's too much at stake for all parties for them to let it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalcolmW Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I don't think leaving the EU will affect national security in any way. There's too much at stake for all parties for them to let it happen. Â There is a difference between EU and NATO. The former is slow to make decisions, and often compromised. At least NATO can be decisive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie Tate Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 General Rose - the best of the lot - has distanced himself from the letter and more or less declared himself an outer. So has Lord Bramhall, pretty much anyway. What the rest of them are on about it is hard to tell. Â The idea that defence will suffer outside the EU is bizarre. If ever there was an area where the EU countries need us more than we need them, it is defence, counter terrorism and the like. Inestimably more important is our relationship with the Americans and the five eyes arrangements. We are genuine world leaders here - let's not do ourselves down by thinking there is anything useful that we can't do without from Luxembourg. Or Sweden. Or even Germany. Or any of them. Â The EU is not NATO. The latter is actually useful. Corbyn of course, though he won't admit it, wants us out of both. He's only half right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Bingo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 General Rose - the best of the lot - has distanced himself from the letter and more or less declared himself an outer. So has Lord Bramhall, pretty much anyway. What the rest of them are on about it is hard to tell. The idea that defence will suffer outside the EU is bizarre. If ever there was an area where the EU countries need us more than we need them, it is defence, counter terrorism and the like. Inestimably more important is our relationship with the Americans and the five eyes arrangements. We are genuine world leaders here - let's not do ourselves down by thinking there is anything useful that we can't do without from Luxembourg. Or Sweden. Or even Germany. Or any of them. Â The EU is not NATO. The latter is actually useful. Corbyn of course, though he won't admit it, wants us out of both. He's only half right. Except for the fact that Rose and Bramall have not declared themselves as outers at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Surely if you're worldview is that terrorists are streaming across Europe under the guise of being refugees from Syria - then the argument would be for closer integration with the security services in the countries through which you suspect them of passing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie Tate Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Except for the fact that Rose and Bramall have not declared themselves as outers at all  Oh?  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-sir-michael-rose-eu-is-eroding-our-sovereignty-says-former-sas-commander-a6894606.html  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html  As good as.  Surely if you're worldview is that terrorists are streaming across Europe under the guise of being refugees from Syria - then the argument would be for closer integration with the security services in the countries through which you suspect them of passing?  This connects with the EU how? Except the existence of Schengen allowing them to stream to more or less wherever they want of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 It connects with the EU in the sense that what little cooperation there is between us and the security services within the EU is likely to be further eroded if we leave altogether. You asked what Luxembourg, Sweden or Germany had that was useful and that we couldn't do without - intelligence about the movement of terrorist suspects would be the most obvious one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Oh?  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-sir-michael-rose-eu-is-eroding-our-sovereignty-says-former-sas-commander-a6894606.html  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12172525/War-hero-felt-pressured-by-No.10-into-signing-pro-Europe-letter.html  As good as.   This connects with the EU how? Except the existence of Schengen allowing them to stream to more or less wherever they want of course. ive already read that... Nothing like as good as  Nowhere near  Unless it suits your argument to say so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie Tate Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 It connects with the EU in the sense that what little cooperation there is between us and the security services within the EU is likely to be further eroded if we leave altogether. You asked what Luxembourg, Sweden or Germany had that was useful and that we couldn't do without - intelligence about the movement of terrorist suspects would be the most obvious one.  There is no way there will be any less of that once we've left.  ive already read that...  Nothing like as good as  Nowhere near  Unless it suits your argument to say so  Have it your way but the refusal of many others to sign , including recent personalities like Generals Wall and Richards shows clearly that there is no groundswell of opinion in favour of staying amongst defence chiefs. They probably think as I do that it is irrelevant to the question at hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 It connects with the EU in the sense that what little cooperation there is between us and the security services within the EU is likely to be further eroded if we leave altogether. You asked what Luxembourg, Sweden or Germany had that was useful and that we couldn't do without - intelligence about the movement of terrorist suspects would be the most obvious one. You don't have to be in the EU to share the information. Â Long before the EU there was Interpol. Â Anyhoo, a view from the City... Â http://masterinvestor.co.uk/brexit/britain-should-vote-for-brexit-before-the-inevitable-eurozone-meltdown/?utm_source=Master+Investor&utm_campaign=3164ea0c49-Master_Investor_Daily_Bulletin2_23_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_25eff0bb7f-3164ea0c49-34915957 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 You don't have to be in the EU to share the information. Â Long before the EU there was Interpol. Â Anyhoo, a view from the City... Â http://masterinvestor.co.uk/brexit/britain-should-vote-for-brexit-before-the-inevitable-eurozone-meltdown/?utm_source=Master+Investor&utm_campaign=3164ea0c49-Master_Investor_Daily_Bulletin2_23_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_25eff0bb7f-3164ea0c49-34915957 The bloke that wrote that article was telling everybody to buy property in Europe this time last year because the Euro had hit rock bottom. Â http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/11480957/Jim-Mellon-Now-is-the-time-for-Britons-to-buy-European-property.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) Yeah. That's fine. You don't have to be in the EU to buy property investments.  That's why swathes of London is owned by Russians , Chinese & Arabs  What's your point listener? Edited February 25, 2016 by BOWTUN BAKED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 There is no way there will be any less of that once we've left.   Have it your way but the refusal of many others to sign , including recent personalities like Generals Wall and Richards shows clearly that there is no groundswell of opinion in favour of staying amongst defence chiefs. They probably think as I do that it is irrelevant to the question at hand. But don't forget that this line of though on this thread came from Baked saying we are safer Out  There are a number of ex Military bods saying In  And none that have yet said Out  You may say it's irrelevant, you may say we should leave EU for other reasons; but on the sole poinf of "safety", until there is credible opposition, I feel that we are safer In Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 The bloke that wrote that article was telling everybody to buy property in Europe this time last year because the Euro had hit rock bottom. Â http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/11480957/Jim-Mellon-Now-is-the-time-for-Britons-to-buy-European-property.html He's also good mates with Farage and introduced him to a major donor from UKIP Â Hardly a view from the City that is impartial politically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Yeah. That's fine. You don't have to be in the EU to buy property investments.  That's why swathes of London is owned by Russians , Chinese & Arabs  What's your point listener? It was that this time last year he was saying that the Euro had reached its lowest point and that we should all invest there - and this year he's saying that the Euro is at the point of collapse and we should pull out of the EU before it melts down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 But don't forget that this line of though on this thread came from Baked saying we are safer Out  There are a number of ex Military bods saying In  And none that have yet said Out  You may say it's irrelevant, you may say we should leave EU for other reasons; but on the sole poinf of "safety", until there is credible opposition, I feel that we are safer In Where did I say we were safer out?  Those that say We're safer in, haven't said why?  As I've said, I just want the why's from old, present, in or out.  Someone just saying we will doesn't cut it for me, I need more than that.  It's a bit sheeplike to just except without questioning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Where did I say we were safer out?  Those that say We're safer in, haven't said why?  As I've said, I just want the why's from old, present, in or out.  Someone just saying we will doesn't cut it for me, I need more than that.  It's a bit sheeplike to just except without questioning You did exactly that at 10:52am to Maggie's post JSL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOWTUN BAKED Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 You did exactly that at 10:52am to Maggie's post  JSL Bingo  I didn't say we were safer out. I just agree with what Maggie said. That's were I'm at on the matter. It's not saying we're safer or not, I just can't see if we are or aren't until someone gives evidence to say so.  It's not really important an issue to me compared to other issues with regards to Economics, Immigration, Social Services , NHS etc.  I can't see us being safer or unsafer by being in or out. I can see a status quo with regards to the issue on security. Happy to be swayed one way or the other if relevant reasonings are given though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Bingo  I didn't say we were safer out. I just agree with what Maggie said. That's were I'm at on the matter. It's not saying we're safer or not, I just can't see if we are or aren't until someone gives evidence to say so.  It's not really important an issue to me compared to other issues with regards to Economics, Immigration, Social Services , NHS etc.  I can't see us being safer or unsafer by being in or out. I can see a status quo with regards to the issue on security. Happy to be swayed one way or the other if relevant reasonings are given though. I don't think it's a major factor either to be honest It is one IMO though  Looking forward to the ongoing debate  In Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) I don't think it's a major factor either to be honest  It is one IMO though  Looking forward to the ongoing debate  In For sure it'll be safer, we can also chose who we want to take into the country, people we need not all and sundry. It's utter madness to let this European farce to continue it is corrupt beyond belief, let the Germans and French sort out the mess they have created. Edited February 25, 2016 by Mounts Kipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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