As suggested by @Johnnyrotten splitting this off from the transfer chat as a place for formation nerds like me to discuss tactics.

@wanderer1984 I agree 343 is a really weird formation. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 teams playing it successfully in the last 20ish years - Brazil 2002 and Chelsea under Conte.

Brazil 2002 had Cafu and Roberto Carlos as the wing backs.... And a front 3 that was ridiculous, so don't really work as a comparison to any other team.

However Chelsea under Conte is interesting. The 3 at the back helped to not expose David Luiz when he'd invariably wander. And the wing backs were completely different, Alonso was previously a full back, and Moses previously a winger. And Chelsea would play Azpilicueta at RCB to cover Moses.

So @Rival Son I'm not sure we need 2 primarily attacking wing backs to make it work. Schon as more attacking and Cogley more defensive could be fine.

The bit we are missing is in midfield though. Both those teams had pure enforcers in the centre. Chelsea had Matic and Kanye, and Brazil had Gilberto Silva and Kleberson (more a hard worker but not a ball player definitely). This is where we seem way off it with Thomason and Sheehan. I like both but they're not enforcers.

14 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

From memory, we'd had a few injuries (sounds familiar) and were starting Adam Senior at right-back at one point

It definitely needed a change

Then we signed Fossey in the January, changed to a back three and moved Jones to right centre-back

Changing formation to suit the kind of players you have in your squad?! What a weird idea, it'll never catch on....

Does show Evatt used to be able to do this stuff. For whatever reason he's lost one of the things that made him a good manager for us those first few years.

Maybe not tonight but will get behind a change such at this

Baxter 

Tutu Toal Johnston Murphy 

Matete

Sheehan Morley 

Randall

Collins McAtee 

Still looks powder puff in the middle but something needs to change

31 minutes ago, Zico said:

Maybe but tonight but will get behind a change such at this

Baxter 

Tutu Toal Johnston Murphy 

Matete

Sheehan Morley 

Randall

Collins McAtee 

Still looks powder puff in the middle but something needs to change

To add as much physicality as possible i'd bring in Tomo where Sheehan or Morley are, and push the one he replaces up to attacking midfield instead of Randall.

And then Jones at right back, and Forrester ahead of Johnston. It's not adding much like, but it's all we've got.

5 hours ago, Zico said:

Maybe not tonight but will get behind a change such at this

Baxter 

Tutu Toal Johnston Murphy 

Matete

Sheehan Morley 

Randall

Collins McAtee 

Still looks powder puff in the middle but something needs to change

More fannies than a Blackpool whorehouse.

How we're halfway through the season  as a team who plays with 2 strikers and are left without a competent out and out striker is fookin mad.

Collins is good but he drifts..Mcatee is half the player.. he drifts and Vic is playing football like a pissed bloke with a bouncy ball.

For me, making us even more narrow is a crazy idea. Our team struggles for width at the best of times. We're not good enough to cut through teams which is where our new sideways and backwards chant has come from. 

We need an out and out target man with pace and it's 451/433 all day long for me making us a solid outfit. Schon/tutu on either side. Collins and Mcatee on the bench/competing with Randall for the attacking mid spot. 

41 minutes ago, bwfc4ife said:

our new sideways and backwards chant has come from.  

it's not new.

On 19/01/2025 at 08:26, Stig said:

I don't agree at all. Tactics and formations are a fundamental part of the game and ours generally make it very easy to play against us.

Our tactics include:

-passing the ball around very deep in defence. Once a mistake is made the opposition are almost in on goal already.

-leaving players unmarked on the edge of the box. Good technical players have a free shot.

 

And its not just us, not by a long way.  Just saw Chelsea's 1st goal last night, Wolves defending is mind boggling.  All 11 back, all but 3 are stood around the 6 yard line, another 3 stood randomly in the box.  Chelsea have 6 in the box against 11 but at most 3 are being marked.  3 Chelsea players on the edge of the box in loads of space, course it drops to one of them and he mishits a shot, but it results in a goal.  Initially given offside, overturned by VAR - they had so many back what's the chances of all 10 coming out as a unit?  They've conceded 19 from set pieces this season!  

On 21/01/2025 at 12:47, bwfc4ife said:

For me, making us even more narrow is a crazy idea. Our team struggles for width at the best of times. We're not good enough to cut through teams which is where our new sideways and backwards chant has come from. 

We need an out and out target man with pace and it's 451/433 all day long for me making us a solid outfit. Schon/tutu on either side. Collins and Mcatee on the bench/competing with Randall for the attacking mid spot. 

Collins on the bench 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 behave 

1 hour ago, Arrested development said:

Collins on the bench 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 behave 

Just shows how a sacking and uptick on form can change things!

4 hours ago, Arrested development said:

Collins on the bench 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 behave 

I’m Collins biggest fan, think he is class but just can’t play up top on his own. Last couple games I wonder if he’d suit coming from the left in behind a big man

45 minutes ago, bwfc4ife said:

I’m Collins biggest fan, think he is class but just can’t play up top on his own. Last couple games I wonder if he’d suit coming from the left in behind a big man

No, I'm spartacus! 😁

Definitely use him with another striker, but don't play him from one side or t'other for me.

Let him wonder and pick his own movements. He has a natural flair for it; don't restrict him. 

Reckon he's also bright enough to suss out weaknesses, as well as take on board observations of the manager and coaches.

In a 4-5-1/4-3-3, Collins should be wide left

1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

No, I'm spartacus! 😁

Definitely use him with another striker, but don't play him from one side or t'other for me.

Let him wonder and pick his own movements. He has a natural flair for it; don't restrict him. 

Reckon he's also bright enough to suss out weaknesses, as well as take on board observations of the manager and coaches.

Agreed. With two up top, Collins would be 10 to Kone’s (I can dream) 9.

If Schumacher goes 4-3-3, he should still have a roving role.

Collins did a cracking job the other day just being allowed to do as he felt right, he was in the back, in midfield, on the wing and causing havoc with them whilst VA held the centre, it worked really well.

 

Think I worked it out as 28 goals since he signed for us a year ago, can't fault that at all

I'll move this formation chat here for anyone not interested in this stuff.

On the whole I like the 4231 formation change - it caused Stockport a lot of problems yesterday and got rid of the slow play along the back 5 that's been our major issue the last few seasons. 

However, we don't have a decent enough "10" to play in the 3 behind the striker. McAtee and Randall are not good enough for a team going for promotion and it just ends up being a wasted player.

Instead I think we should switch to a 433 and make use of the area where we are very strong which is having 4 top midfielders for this level (plus Dempsey when he's fit). We'd end up stronger in midfield and could still give one or two of them licence to get forward i.e. Simons becomes the most defensive of the 3 with Erhahon and Morley given more of a box to box midfield role.

This

Just said pretty much the same on the Stockport thread, thought he may have gone 4/3/3 yesterday  to give us a bit of protection in midfield.

On the left we was fine, both Gomes and Gayle tracked back, but on the right Cogley was left exposed because Duberry never tracked back. Dodeson was given too much time and space to cross balls time and time again

1 hour ago, Stig said:

I'll move this formation chat here for anyone not interested in this stuff.

On the whole I like the 4231 formation change - it caused Stockport a lot of problems yesterday and got rid of the slow play along the back 5 that's been our major issue the last few seasons. 

However, we don't have a decent enough "10" to play in the 3 behind the striker. McAtee and Randall are not good enough for a team going for promotion and it just ends up being a wasted player.

Instead I think we should switch to a 433 and make use of the area where we are very strong which is having 4 top midfielders for this level (plus Dempsey when he's fit). We'd end up stronger in midfield and could still give one or two of them licence to get forward i.e. Simons becomes the most defensive of the 3 with Erhahon and Morley given more of a box to box midfield role.

I can see that, 4-3-3 also gives that flexibility to switch in situations to 4-5-1, as Big Sam tended to have us do in the Prem.

While I wouldn't mind Randall being given a go in the 10 for a few games I'd certainly like to see a three of Simons, Erhahon and Morley, with the first two as the 'double pivot' and Morley with the licence to get further forward. Could Randall be that further forward one? Maybe? McAtee doesn't fit in anywhere really

I don't know if we've really got the midfield runners for a 4-3-3

Dempsey would be one but he's near permanently injured

The problem with not having a 10 is that the central striker can be too easy to mark. Having a midfielder in the pocket can drag one out and the lines are closer to be able to get the wide players on the ball in higher areas.

If you've got a mint #6 and full backs confident on the ball then you can have your 2 #8's higher and really put it on them

1 hour ago, ianofcleveleys said:

I can see that, 4-3-3 also gives that flexibility to switch in situations to 4-5-1, as Big Sam tended to have us do in the Prem.

While I wouldn't mind Randall being given a go in the 10 for a few games I'd certainly like to see a three of Simons, Erhahon and Morley, with the first two as the 'double pivot' and Morley with the licence to get further forward. Could Randall be that further forward one? Maybe? McAtee doesn't fit in anywhere really

Yeah, I was thinking of that Big Sam team that we started in the prem with. Warhurst being more defensive and then Nolan and Frandsen as the two midfielders who would attack and defend.

If you look at the top prem teams now for comparison most play 433 and only really arsenal play 4231, which works for them because Odegaard is a specialist in that 10 role.

McAtee offers nothing, so we may as well try Randall if we want to stick with 4231 a bit longer.

51 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I don't know if we've really got the midfield runners for a 4-3-3

Dempsey would be one but he's near permanently injured

Two fast winger types up front to provide pace, width and a goal threat.

Dalby or Burstow a target for them to play off as an alternative. 

Those three can gradually press, and look to get on the end of things should they be partly cleared.

Maybe an option away from home against teams like these.

58 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I don't know if we've really got the midfield runners for a 4-3-3

Dempsey would be one but he's near permanently injured

He's not injury prone he's just had loads of injuries and is currently out injured after being injured half of last season.

Will be interesting to see what he can do when up to speed after his op.

He won't be going any where for obvious reasons, so hopefully we can get a decent player back.

Formations apart there were familiar faults which were similar to last year. Keeper not dominating six yard area and missed chances. I suppose what concerned me most that after half an hour, through sheer aggressive play our midfield was push back and lost the battle. Agree with the consideration of a midfield three, but hopefully our new midfield signings will make us more competitive in this area. It doesn't bode  well for Sheehan and Morley though who quite clearly do not relish the battle and will not release the ball quickly enough.