As suggested by @Johnnyrotten splitting this off from the transfer chat as a place for formation nerds like me to discuss tactics.

@wanderer1984 I agree 343 is a really weird formation. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 teams playing it successfully in the last 20ish years - Brazil 2002 and Chelsea under Conte.

Brazil 2002 had Cafu and Roberto Carlos as the wing backs.... And a front 3 that was ridiculous, so don't really work as a comparison to any other team.

However Chelsea under Conte is interesting. The 3 at the back helped to not expose David Luiz when he'd invariably wander. And the wing backs were completely different, Alonso was previously a full back, and Moses previously a winger. And Chelsea would play Azpilicueta at RCB to cover Moses.

So @Rival Son I'm not sure we need 2 primarily attacking wing backs to make it work. Schon as more attacking and Cogley more defensive could be fine.

The bit we are missing is in midfield though. Both those teams had pure enforcers in the centre. Chelsea had Matic and Kanye, and Brazil had Gilberto Silva and Kleberson (more a hard worker but not a ball player definitely). This is where we seem way off it with Thomason and Sheehan. I like both but they're not enforcers.

Thought we were sticking to our DNA?

12 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Thought we were sticking to our DNA?

I don’t think he even knows what that is anymore 

1 hour ago, Zico said:

Rumour is James Collins was set to sign at weekend but Lincoln have come in with a better offer

not having to play for Evatt?

DNA? Nothingness

Evatt just tosses word salad and speaks NVQ coach brochure jargon.

 

looks we are going to a back 4 then, as no point in signing a left back otherwise (well, you could play him somewhere else, obvs)

spose he has to try something new

who plays in a back 4? who gets dropped?

what happens to Schon?

I presume a diamond would be

Randall

Morley GT

Sheehan

or maybe swap Morley and Sheehan around

Matete would work at the back too and push Sheehan further forward

I'd like to see Tutu at RB

 

With the squad balanced the way it is I think a 4-1-2-1-2 is a dreadful idea. 

It's the exact same issues we have now, asking the full backs to add the width, except this time it's whilst losing a central defender to cover the space left behind. 

Would be more than content with 2 CB’s out of Johnstone Forrester and Toal. 
 

Forrester is far more comfortable as one of two or centre of a 3 than he is on either the left or right of a 3. Santos stinks of not wanting to be here anymore and he’s bordering on a calamity the times he’s at fault. 
 

Tutu, Williams and schon will be far more effective without the worry of trying to defend which they can’t do anyway 

JDC Forrester Toal [New left back]

I’d rather a new right back but we can probably get away with JDC seeing as he has played RCB reasonably well. We absolutely 100% need a left back because Schon is no defender.

Forrester and Toal for me could be a proper centre back partnership for years. Youngish, both love to defend, Forrester a bit of a nutter, Toal a talker (should be captain) and comfortable enough on his left to play LCB. If they had a run of games together with a decent defensive mid in front of them then I think you’d see a huge difference in our ability to defend. No requirement to overlap up the wing, just defend.

On 12/01/2025 at 12:07, desperado said:

If I’m to join the ranks of football manager, then I’m on my computer simulator and I’m playing and re-playing that game until I get a win with a clean sheet.

Back to BSA theory of sort your defence out first, get a clean sheet.

Although I hear the calls of youngsters being thrown to the lions, I’d recall Conway from Crewe, a left sided defender who is playing well and has had loads of game time and a successful loan spell.

And I’d get some square pegs in square holes.

Based on who we could pick at the moment, I’d go 4-5-1, with this:

                     Southwood

Jones.       Santos     Toal.      Conway

Tutu.         Matete.  Morley      Schon

                         Randall

                         Charles

I go back to this.

4-5-1 go get us solid, keep a clean sheet. Schon and Tutu perfect as wide midfielders.

Sheehan in for Matete

Although I’d be tempted with Forrester rather than Santos, new LB and Collins up front.

I agree with above I don’t see a diamond working.

Edited January 20, 20251 yr by desperado

6 minutes ago, desperado said:

I go back to this.

4-5-1 go get us solid, keep a clean sheet. Schon and Tutu perfect as wide midfielders.

Sheehan in for Matete

Although I’d be tempted with Forrester rather than Santos, new LB and Collins up front.

I agree with above I don’t see a diamond working.

While I like that it's not what Evatt/Iles seems to be suggesting. They're preferring the look of the diamond midfield in an effort to get midfield control.

Maybe the thinking is to regain confidence with some tighter games and add some wingers like Schon and Tutu later.

The diamond would work well on paper. 

Matete

Sheehan Morley

Randall

Matete has the defensive side of his game and covers enough ground to be the base of the diamond. Morley and Sheehan play as your genuine midfielders, both freed up slightly to get further forward (which would benefit them both) and Randall plays as a genuine 10.

Problem is, it isn’t Fifa on the PlayStation. We’d have fuck all width and you’d need a combination of your full backs, Sheehan and Morley and your forwards to pull out wide to make it work - all of which needs some time to coach and understand.

Biggest thing for me though is just the change to the back 4. It fundamentally changes the way we play and should address the key issues. Whatever happens above it (diamond, 4231, 433) is what it is - at least you have another player up there and you aren’t solely relying on shit wing backs to be successful 

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Problem is, it isn’t Fifa on the PlayStation. We’d have fuck all width and you’d need a combination of your full backs, Sheehan and Morley and your forwards to pull out wide to make it work - all of which needs some time to coach and understand.

We have beleiefly played the midfield diamond under Evatt before and this was indeed the problem

Hopefully, he's found a way to resolve it

Not saying there aren't some good suggestions that would improve us, but to me its all irrelevant if we continue to play without anyone that can tackle, without anyone that can head a ball offensively and with one arm tied behind our back every time we "defend" a set piece.  We could play any formation under the sun and a half decent opposition will just brush us aside.

Very much doubt it matters who we recruit or what formation we play now. The rot has well and truly set in. Any fundamental change now will just be seen as a last-ditch panic attempt to recover his reputation.

I'd want this formation. The problem is we no longer have the players to play it 

Too little to late for me smacks of desperation yet again.

What's dapo up to?

19 minutes ago, Rizlar said:

Too little to late for me smacks of desperation yet again.

At least it would be trying something different to something that’s clearly flawed 

Just now, superkev said:

At least it would be trying something different to something that’s clearly flawed 

Just lost any faith in him tbh.

21 minutes ago, gonzo said:

What's dapo up to?

working on a move to the second tier of some european league when st pauli get relegated, id think

done well for himself from a shit loan at oldham

I never understood why he changed from 4-2-3-1 after it got us promoted and had Dapo in his best position

2 hours ago, Cheese said:

Very much doubt it matters who we recruit or what formation we play now. The rot has well and truly set in. Any fundamental change now will just be seen as a last-ditch panic attempt to recover his reputation.

Correct but to be fair given his stance on his DNA etc it is just that

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

The diamond would work well on paper. 

Matete

Sheehan Morley

Randall

Matete has the defensive side of his game and covers enough ground to be the base of the diamond. Morley and Sheehan play as your genuine midfielders, both freed up slightly to get further forward (which would benefit them both) and Randall plays as a genuine 10.

Problem is, it isn’t Fifa on the PlayStation. We’d have fuck all width and you’d need a combination of your full backs, Sheehan and Morley and your forwards to pull out wide to make it work - all of which needs some time to coach and understand.

Biggest thing for me though is just the change to the back 4. It fundamentally changes the way we play and should address the key issues. Whatever happens above it (diamond, 4231, 433) is what it is - at least you have another player up there and you aren’t solely relying on shit wing backs to be successful 

Each to their own, but if we want a ball player at the bottom, then we still need two grafters in front.

Those three you list at the top would still worry me. Especially with no Dion leading a press.

 

1 hour ago, Zico said:

I never understood why he changed from 4-2-3-1 after it got us promoted and had Dapo in his best position

If I remember correctly we were languishing  towards the bottom end of the league. He went to a back 3 and had us on a great run which ended with us finishing 9th

1 hour ago, superkev said:

If I remember correctly we were languishing  towards the bottom end of the league. He went to a back 3 and had us on a great run which ended with us finishing 9th

From memory, we'd had a few injuries (sounds familiar) and were starting Adam Senior at right-back at one point

It definitely needed a change

Then we signed Fossey in the January, changed to a back three and moved Jones to right centre-back