16 minutes ago, barrycowdrill said:

Summarises the issues we have at both ends currently. Without knowing the figure either I would hazard a guess that a very high proportion of our shots are not on target 

 

 

Like a lot of other folk, I always watch the EFL highlight show on Channel 5/ITV player which shows every goal from every team, every week and if you look at the vast array of ways that teams manage to score in League 1, allowing just 23 shots and conceding just 5 goals is quite an achievement defensively.

League 1 is littered with big, strong athletic players not all of whom are necessarily as easy on the eye as ours but a lot of the goals come from powerful play, shrugging off tackles, direct through balls from midfield and decent finishing under pressure. There are a few worldies like Stockport FK yesterday but the vast majority of goals that come from crosses and pullbacks happen when there are 3+ attackers in the box putting themselves around and wrestling off CBs to get on the end of them.

Having quick wide men is great, providing there is more than one or two strikers in the box to compete for crosses but we don’t have that because none of Simons, Erhahon, Sheehan or Morley are going to flood the opposition box and compete with big CBs in support of a quick attack. 
Which is often why the wide men cut back inside because our striker is usually double marked.

In theory the 10 should be in there to receive but a 5 year old can push Randall off the ball and he hasn’t got long legs to reach anything not to feet.

So Schumacher could try to make the midfield cover more ground to get behind defences, but the compromise is the defensive cover.

IMO.

47 minutes ago, barrycowdrill said:

Summarises the issues we have at both ends currently. Without knowing the figure either I would hazard a guess that a very high proportion of our shots are not on target 

 

 

Can I just point out that the 84 shots have only produced 4 goals? We had no shot for our equaliser yesterday.

@Casino can close his eyes and put his hands over his ears 😂. But I saw the formation change at HT play out the way SS describes. And I think this could be something to use going forward. 
 

 “We wanted to change shape,” the head coach explained. “We realised obviously with Lincoln going ahead when they did, they're one of the hardest teams to play against when they take the lead. 

“They do all the basics really well, they defend deep, they protect the goal, they stop you getting anything clean.

“Having two pivots, two deep midfield players, we didn't really need that because they weren't likely to have much of the ball or counter-attack.

“So we just decided to change the shape and put a single pivot there in Josh Sheehan, who's one of the best in the league at that, can control the game from the middle of the pitch on his own.

“And Aaron Morley is one of the best at crossing the ball from that eight-pocket, and that change allowed both full-backs to go a bit higher, the wingers to play a bit higher and it increased the tempo for us, so in the end we got what we deserved.”

Interesting stuff in terms of the debate on the make up of our midfield.

I must admit I liked the sound of Erhahon and Simons protecting our back four but equally agree that in circumstances like yesterday it can mean we don't have enough players up the field. Indeed there's a case for arguing that we shouldn't have started yesterday's game with the two of them in place. 

There is a case for starting them both in tough away games but even then there needs to be a realisation that we need to score to win games !! 

What nobody has said yet is that the reason SS selected the team this way on Tuesday and today may be that he, like many of us, doesn't quite trust that back four. 

The long and short of it is (as stated before) we've signed 12 players and we are feeling our way in to the season.

Edited August 24, 2025Aug 24 by paulhanley

25 minutes ago, desperado said:

I’m hoping the 2nd half tweak means we’ll play two midfielders in front of Sheehan at Blackpool.

I’d like to think players like Morley (who SS pointed out as doing this well yesterday) and surely Simons, as box to box midfielders, can do the duel role of giving solidity and energy in the middle of the park along with a goal scoring threat behind Burstow.

Just my fan opinion/observation. 

If nothing else, yesterdays HT subs and changing from his preferred formation reinforces the status that SS can still have his preferred methods but is adaptable/flexible enough to change when things aren’t working out.

Yeah, I wasn't saying SS doesn't change formation in-game, he definitely does, but so far he's started every game with 1 up front (not surprising as we only had 1 fit striker) and a no.10.  I don't see this changing in the near future even when Dalby is fully fit, but we'll see.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the no.10 role longer term as its hard to see either Randall or McAtee being regular starters on current form.

SS is getting a lot of practise and changing it when its not working out!  5 out of 6 games (including cup), there's a deja vu feeling in the last 10 minutes where we're desperately chasing a goal.

Hard to tell with Simon’s and EE work together as the game plan went out of the window in 20 seconds. No need to write it off yet

1 minute ago, tomski said:

Hard to tell with Simon’s and EE work together as the game plan went out of the window in 20 seconds. No need to write it off yet

Aye.

I think the winger/striker issue is the biggest one.

Sheehan could easily play at 10.

Understand that is changing players positions territory

1 minute ago, gonzo said:

Sheehan could easily play at 10.

Understand that is changing players positions territory

I think so.

Certainly worth a try.

Seems to be pidgeon-holed as being further back though- SS said he's one of the best around at getting things moving- though qualified by saying as we were up against a defensive attitude so he didn't have the same level of pressure.

20 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Yeah, I wasn't saying SS doesn't change formation in-game, he definitely does, but so far he's started every game with 1 up front (not surprising as we only had 1 fit striker) and a no.10.  I don't see this changing in the near future even when Dalby is fully fit, but we'll see.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the no.10 role longer term as its hard to see either Randall or McAtee being regular starters on current form.

SS is getting a lot of practise and changing it when its not working out!  5 out of 6 games (including cup), there's a deja vu feeling in the last 10 minutes where we're desperately chasing a goal.

 

5 minutes ago, tomski said:

Hard to tell with Simon’s and EE work together as the game plan went out of the window in 20 seconds. No need to write it off yet

 

3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Aye.

I think the winger/striker issue is the biggest one.

I used the word puzzle earlier.

It’s going to take some working out. 

But it won’t be one solution, there’s going to be multiple parts and new ones we have to face throughout the season.

What we can’t and shouldnt be doing, is lauding one effort (Erhahon & Simons v Reading) one game, then writing it off the next game as it never working again.

I think it’s great we’ve got quality options here and I think it’s going to take different solutions and combinations against different opposition at different times in a game.

Like it or not we are still very much in the trial period. 

I know we can’t keep in saying it and it seems a bit hollow when we haven’t started the season how we wanted, but I believe I’ve seen enough to think we’ll start to get it right at the two ends of the pitch where it matters. 

We agree then about yesterday's midfield pairing. 

As a number of us have said, there is clearly a problem at the top end, and that is the biggest one we have.

I know it won't happen, but Conway in front of Taylor would give more defensive solidity, and a better supply of crosses from that side.

OK not as pacy, but when it takes a while for the wingers to get it in anyway, then why not.

7 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Sheehan could easily play at 10.

Understand that is changing players positions territory

 

3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I think so.

Certainly worth a try.

Seems to be pidgeon-holed as being further back though- SS said he's one of the best around at getting things moving- though qualified by saying as we were up against a defensive attitude so he didn't have the same level of pressure.

Interesting debate and one that always surfaces when we are lacking behind the front line, so it obviously has some merit.

But I don’t see this ever happening again for Sheehan in a BWFC shirt.

I ask this out of ignorance, has he ever played here for us? I can only think pre-injury when we had MJ, but nothing stands out for me.

IMO Sheehans best games have always been in that deeper lying midfield role, where sometimes he has license to join in around the box and chip in with a few goals.

Maybe as an eight (yeh I know 😂) alongside another but I just don’t see him as a 10.

Even further ahead of the base I think we’ve got better options in Morley, Simons and Dempsey (yes again I know) 

I’d be amazed if we saw Sheehan replace Mcatee or Randall

 

5 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

We agree then about yesterday's midfield pairing. 

Absolutely. It didn’t work, which was why SS had to and did change it.

I think @tomski makes a good point, conceding so early ripped up the plan, they didn’t adapt, so change it.

I think we also agree that just because that happened in one game, the EE/XS pairing shouldn’t be dismissed. 

1 hour ago, Johnnyrotten said:

On Dalby, its a chicken and egg situation.  He can't get upto speed without playing (starting), but we also can't afford to play someone in such a crucial position that is finding it hard to get into games. 

Was he on for about 20 odd minutes yesterday?  I didn't notice him once, it's not a criticism, the ball just never seemed to go near him (admittedly I'm watching a long way from the North Stand).  Burstow has to keep his place currently and I don't think we've seen enough from Dalby to justify playing 2 up front from the start, especially in a big game at Blackpool (not that there's any suggestion SS is thinking of changing his preferred formation).  

The ball didn't go near him because, as we've kicked around, the wingers kept on cutting back inside, then Sheehan and Morley had to pass it back and forth trying to thread it through a forest of bodies. He took up all the right positions, grappled with them for a few balls but got absolutely nothing to attack.

Gale got to the line three or four times, turned back, gave it to Conway and it went back inside. ACD did similar until the final attack, when there was more space and they were back pedalling. 

Much of that last half hour was like watching any number of home games under Evatt where we'd tossed a goal away and they sat back and shithoused for 70 minutes

 

EE and XS are quality players so the idea they should be dumped is IMO crazy. They need some games together to understand how each other play. Yesterday first half it did not work, both were playing deep and making very few runs forward. In a home game when losing that was totally ineffective. 
 

Morley and Sheehan second half were excellent and just so much more positive. Think a heat map of where they played second half v first half partnership would be pretty telling I guess. Playing so deep first half blunted the wingers too as their midfield could double up on the wingers so the supply just dried up. 
 

But even with the 2 midfielders deep the biggest issue is the ineffectiveness of the number 10. Nothing sticks and when on the ball very little meaningful is contributed. McAtees absence described as tactical, which tends to imply SS has made his made up about him. Lincoln were a typical League 1 team, strong, organised and direct. The number 7 aside they were very average. Time wasting from early on and a weak ref letting them get away with, ironically if they had showed a bit more positivity think they could have caused us problems. 
 

Taylor kicking the ball out for a corner was a great moment 

1 hour ago, Rival Son said:

Can I just point out that the 84 shots have only produced 4 goals? We had no shot for our equaliser yesterday.

Which is because we don’t have enough bodies attacking together quickly and getting amongst/behind their back line so we end up shooting from distance or at a defender. We are simply not penetrating the last line in the middle of the goal often enough to get better chances

I see other teams breaking with 5 or more players busting a gut to get forward and into their box to support the attack before the opposition can get into shape which gives them better shooting options.

Our midfield either doesn’t keep up with the attack or waits til the opposition are back in their defensive shape and forms a ring outside the box and passes side to side until they get bored and someone has a dip from 25 yards or more or chucks it to the far post hoping someone will nod it back and their CBs won’t clear.

Edited August 24, 2025Aug 24 by Wanderlust

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

Sheehan could easily play at 10.

Understand that is changing players positions territory

He certainly could, I've bored folk on here about it a few times over the last season or two. He had one go at it under Evatt, in an emergency, v Derby at home the season before last and was in his element, made loads happen, got us a penalty, got shots in. 

Freed up from responsibility of being deep, getting it off the keeper and being hammered by opponents he could do a lot of damage. If he were to draw fouls it'd be in dangerous areas.

9 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

Like a lot of other folk, I always watch the EFL highlight show on Channel 5/ITV player which shows every goal from every team, every week and if you look at the vast array of ways that teams manage to score in League 1, allowing just 23 shots and conceding just 5 goals is quite an achievement defensively.

League 1 is littered with big, strong athletic players not all of whom are necessarily as easy on the eye as ours but a lot of the goals come from powerful play, shrugging off tackles, direct through balls from midfield and decent finishing under pressure. There are a few worldies like Stockport FK yesterday but the vast majority of goals that come from crosses and pullbacks happen when there are 3+ attackers in the box putting themselves around and wrestling off CBs to get on the end of them.

Having quick wide men is great, providing there is more than one or two strikers in the box to compete for crosses but we don’t have that because none of Simons, Erhahon, Sheehan or Morley are going to flood the opposition box and compete with big CBs in support of a quick attack. 
Which is often why the wide men cut back inside because our striker is usually double marked.

In theory the 10 should be in there to receive but a 5 year old can push Randall off the ball and he hasn’t got long legs to reach anything not to feet.

So Schumacher could try to make the midfield cover more ground to get behind defences, but the compromise is the defensive cover.

IMO.

One thing I always notice watching it on ITV is in the championship, the quality of the goals is extraordinary compared to League One. What look difficult chances are took routinely and it’s clear that if we did get promoted we’d need significant investment to be able to compete as this set of players in the main, simply couldn’t. 

11 minutes ago, boltonboris said:

One thing I always notice watching it on ITV is in the championship, the quality of the goals is extraordinary compared to League One. What look difficult chances are took routinely and it’s clear that if we did get promoted we’d need significant investment to be able to compete as this set of players in the main, simply couldn’t. 

The gulf is massive

Bigger than the gulf between the top two leagues for me

8 hours ago, gonzo said:

Sheehan could easily play at 10.

Understand that is changing players positions territory

Whoever plays number 10 would benefit massively from having the ability to shoot from range. Theres space in there for it considering how much attention is being given to the wingers. Unfortunately its not a quality that Sheehan or Randall have. Mcatee maybe but he has other issues.

As it stands though agree Josh is worth a try, especially if you've got EE, Simons and Morley to choose from for the other 2 positions.

3 minutes ago, Eagle85 said:

Whoever plays number 10 would benefit massively from having the ability to shoot from range. Theres space in there for it considering how much attention is being given to the wingers. Unfortunately its not a quality that Sheehan or Randall have. Mcatee maybe but he has other issues.

As it stands though agree Josh is worth a try, especially if you've got EE, Simons and Morley to choose from for the other 2 positions.

Sheehan hits the ball really well. He’s scored a good number of goals from outside the box. I do like the idea of him higher up the pitch. But he’s probably not much experience of playing with his back to goal, or on the half turn. 
 

I’d definitely like to see it tried. 

Erhahon & Simons can definitely play together, everybody was wanking over them the other night. Especially in the tough games, the big games where it’s going to be a real battle in midfield where one goal likely wins the game that’s when we’ll see how important having a midfield two is who do a bit of everything. Against a Lincoln team who’ve nicked an early goal straight from kick off, sat back with every man behind the ball from the get go not needing to be drawn out whilst also having a tennis umpire as a ref along with a linesman who’s 20 yards behind the play meant it made sense to bring on midfielders who are more likely to hit the target from range & possess set piece threats. Sheehan to be fair to him was brilliant when he came on, Morley was okay unlucky to hit the bar but we’ve seen these lads for the last 4 years or so playing alongside each other & it’s not all that they’ve constantly come unstuck in most games were there’s pressure on us

1 hour ago, boltonboris said:

One thing I always notice watching it on ITV is in the championship, the quality of the goals is extraordinary compared to League One. What look difficult chances are took routinely and it’s clear that if we did get promoted we’d need significant investment to be able to compete as this set of players in the main, simply couldn’t. 

Agreed on that, championship goals are often on a different level to the relatively routine one's we watch every week.  The thought of that IE team going upto the championship, it could have been a car crash.  But saying that, Oxford stopped up so if you have a good manager you do have a chance.  It will help Charlton this year that Sheff Wed will take one of the 3 spots so some seasons you only have to compete with a couple of teams to have a chance of stopping up.  

9 hours ago, boltonboris said:

Sheehan hits the ball really well. He’s scored a good number of goals from outside the box. I do like the idea of him higher up the pitch. But he’s probably not much experience of playing with his back to goal, or on the half turn. 
 

I’d definitely like to see it tried. 

I'm not a fan of this idea. Sheehan isn't quick or dynamic enough nor can I remember many long range goals bar the odd free kick. 

 

Saw someone suggest Dempsey for it the other day. That blew my mind too. I don't think we have anyone capable of it 

11 minutes ago, Kane57 said:

I'm not a fan of this idea. Sheehan isn't quick or dynamic enough nor can I remember many long range goals bar the odd free kick. 

 

Saw someone suggest Dempsey for it the other day. That blew my mind too. I don't think we have anyone capable of it 

Have a look at his goals reel. Some freekick, some curlers from outside the box and a couple where he’s run ahead of the forwards and been in the box to finish like a striker