just found out that if portsmouth go into administration, not only do they get docked the 10 points (think its 10) but every team thats beaten or drawn against them gets the points removed, like wise if they got beaten they get the points back.

 

i can't see how this is in anyway fair, but its the FA that make the rules, does anyone know anything about this?

 

concerned

 

 

desert

The Sky Sport reporter stood outside the court is reporting

 

Inland Revenue owed ?11.5M

Postsmouth is insolvent

 

Portsmouth are claiming that they have two buyers on the table and want a 28 day ajornment but even if this happens they are still insolvent

 

Their only chance was to reach an agreement with HMRC much earlier in the day.

 

I am afraid that they will go belly up and straight into liquidation.

 

All their property assets have been sold or are charged. I can't see anthing meaningful for the administrator to realise. It will be difficult to get anyone to take it on.

This parachute payment advance - tell them go get fucked. They bought an FA Cup and UEFA Cup campaign now want us to pay for it, incredible.

can they still file for administration and still go under?

can they still file for administration and still go under?

 

Is there an echo in here?

This parachute payment advance - tell them go get fucked. They bought an FA Cup and UEFA Cup campaign now want us to pay for it, incredible.

Too right.

 

I can't see them getting it, if they get the payment and go under, the PL will have to find the same payment for another three clubs. And can they afford to give it back if they stay up?

 

Get bent, would be my answer. I think they are just trying to buy more time.

 

If they go under, can we poach Nugent on a free?

and if i was southampton, id be keeping this tv cash in my pocket for the full 14 days

 

 

i've read a lot about it's a shame for their fans

 

well, they had their time in the sun that their club really couldn't afford to give them

 

so, i'm not having that one, either

I can understand thje Premier League wanting to protect its image. I can understand no-one wanting Pompey to do under- not least those of us who stand to be penalised as a result. But what kind of message would this send out? Don't worry if you can't/won't pay the taxman- we'll sort it out for you. Sorry, If someone won't pay their tax, they should accept the consequences and not expect everyone else to bail them out. The consequence for an individual is prison. The consequence for a company is winding-up.

 

As far as Portsmouth's assets are concerned; they have none. They own nothing apart from the contracts of their players- and they are next to worthless at a Championship club. The ground is owned by their former owner. Any other property they may have owned has debt secured on it. As the proceedings are already underway, the ony possible way that the club won't be wound up is if HMRC are paid in full. They will not accept a payment plan, as Pompey have been given ample opportunity to do this.

 

With my taxpayer's hat on, rather than my football supporter's one, I have to say that I agree whole-heartedly with HMRC's ruthless stance against those who don't pay their dues. For HMRC to accept a reduced payment sends out the message that tax is negotiable. That would open up a big can of worms and we would end up a third world country.

I can understand thje Premier League wanting to protect its image. I can understand no-one wanting Pompey to do under- not least those of us who stand to be penalised as a result. But what kind of message would this send out? Don't worry if you can't/won't pay the taxman- we'll sort it out for you. Sorry, If someone won't pay their tax, they should accept the consequences and not expect everyone else to bail them out. The consequence for an individual is prison. The consequence for a company is winding-up.

 

As far as Portsmouth's assets are concerned; they have none. They own nothing apart from the contracts of their players- and they are next to worthless at a Championship club. The ground is owned by their former owner. Any other property they may have owned has debt secured on it. As the proceedings are already underway, the ony possible way that the club won't be wound up is if HMRC are paid in full. They will not accept a payment plan, as Pompey have been given ample opportunity to do this.

 

With my taxpayer's hat on, rather than my football supporter's one, I have to say that I agree whole-heartedly with HMRC's ruthless stance against those who don't pay their dues. For HMRC to accept a reduced payment sends out the message that tax is negotiable. That would open up a big can of worms and we would end up a third world country.

 

I think also that there is a "covenant" or "clause" somewhere which says that the land can only ever be used for football. So even that is worthless as housing land.

No offence Deane - but you are factually wrong.

 

Portsmouth ground is owned by Balram Chainrai (the most recent owner of Portsmouth). He had lent the last owner ?17 million secured on the ground as well as future TV revenue - and when the debt was not repaid he took control of the assets (and the club) in lieu of the debt.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/portsmouth/7153646/Portsmouth-welcome-seasons-fourth-owner-after-Balram-Chainrai-seizes-control-from-beleaguered-Al-Faraj.html

 

In very simple terms as I understand it - it is illegal for any business to continue trading if it is insolvent - ie can't pay it's debts.

 

A business can try to get its creditors to agree to accept a repayment of a reduced amount rather than the full amount of the debt outstanding - and that is where all its creditors accept such a voluntary agreement - that very simply is what Administration is about.

 

But HM Revenue and Customs won't agree to that - hence the court case.

 

Therefore until or unless Portsmouth pays HM Revenue (or comes to some last minute agreement with them - which looks highly unlikely) - the club faces being liquidated (being put out of business and selling everything the club still owns - off).

 

It would seem to me that the club simply does not have enough assets left for anyone to invest in the club and save it - therefore the urgency for Portsmouth to find some money from the FA - the advanced parachute payment - in order to pay the debt owed to HM Revenue - being the most pressing debt to pay - but by no means the only one!

 

The parachute payment cannot be paid without the agreement of the other Premier League clubs. Some clubs though will be better off if Pompey do go bust - as Portsmouth results for the season will be null and void - and Bolton for instance will be 3 points worse off. Bolton will therefore want Portsmouth to survive but other clubs like Chelsea who will gain points on United and extend their lead by a further 3 points at the top of the table - will not.

 

All explained in this article which shows a revised league table without Portsmouth?s results - we are bottom!

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1250363/Portsmouth-rescue-mission-Premier-League-set-hand-debt-ridden-Pompey-lifeline.html?ITO=1490

 

Even if Portsmouth survives HM Revenue, it is far from being out of the woods - with another claim from HM Revenue again in the offing (separate to the ongoing court action!).

 

I'm guessing the FA would want to see Portsmouth survive the court case - then see it immediately agree to go into Administration with its creditors (HM Revenue with its second outstanding claim may well reject this though!)and once the club goes into Admin, it is bought on the cheap by a new investor and thereby survives long enough to see the season out.

 

However whoever thinks of rescuing Portsmouth will simply be buying its debts and Championship position (the deduction of 9 points for entering Admin should be enough to send Pompey down). The club has an old stadium and its previous owner owns the land around it - so it cannot be developed without his involvement.

 

Looking very grim for Portsmouth in my opinion.

I misunderstood the actual ownership of the stadium. Understandable given the amount of owners the club has had in the last few months! Either way, the club doesn't have any real assets of its own that do not already have some outstanding credit secured on them. The club is insolvent, and as Sluffy rightly pointed out, it is illegal for a company to trade in such circumstances. If the company is insolvent, I wonder if they would actually be able to survive the next three months even without this current winding-up petition. The club could still go bust before the end of the season and the same rules for expunging the club's playing record would apply. That being the case, I would far rather that they went now than a couple of weeks before the end of the season, as survival is still currently in our own hands.

 

If the Premier League do provide the parachute payment early (which would probably condemn Portsmouth to doom at the start of next season anyway), what happens when the next HMRC winding-up petition comes to court? Who bails them out then? It could still happen before the end of the season and we would have no time to do anything about it. Better for all concerned if Pompey go now rather than later. A clean break, with time for everyone to sort themselves out. One thing is for certain, Pompey are on borrowed time. No investor/prospective owner with an ounce of sense would buy the club in its current state. Pay the HMRC without having a proper chance to look at the books of a club doomed to relegation? Anyone with half a business brain would wait for the whole thing to run its course before picking up the club for next to nothing. No-one would throw good money after bad at a relatively unfashionable club like Portsmouth, would they?

I misunderstood the actual ownership of the stadium. Understandable given the amount of owners the club has had in the last few months! Either way, the club doesn't have any real assets of its own that do not already have some outstanding credit secured on them. The club is insolvent, and as Sluffy rightly pointed out, it is illegal for a company to trade in such circumstances. If the company is insolvent, I wonder if they would actually be able to survive the next three months even without this current winding-up petition. The club could still go bust before the end of the season and the same rules for expunging the club's playing record would apply. That being the case, I would far rather that they went now than a couple of weeks before the end of the season, as survival is still currently in our own hands.

 

If the Premier League do provide the parachute payment early (which would probably condemn Portsmouth to doom at the start of next season anyway), what happens when the next HMRC winding-up petition comes to court? Who bails them out then? It could still happen before the end of the season and we would have no time to do anything about it. Better for all concerned if Pompey go now rather than later. A clean break, with time for everyone to sort themselves out. One thing is for certain, Pompey are on borrowed time. No investor/prospective owner with an ounce of sense would buy the club in its current state. Pay the HMRC without having a proper chance to look at the books of a club doomed to relegation? Anyone with half a business brain would wait for the whole thing to run its course before picking up the club for next to nothing. No-one would throw good money after bad at a relatively unfashionable club like Portsmouth, would they?

 

Incredibly some complete helmets already have!

Incredibly some complete helmets already have!

 

I was being a bit sarcastic with my last line, but yes, you are quite right, they have. No-one could be that stupid now, though, could they? (Not sarcastic)

On Talksport today that Pompey have signed some defender on loan. What a joke they have failed to pay wages on time on at least 3 occasions, their on the brink of going out of business and yet it's fine to bring another player in. They should be thrown out of the premeirship, the way they are run is a total joke.I do feel sorry for their fans though.

On Talksport today that Pompey have signed some defender on loan. What a joke they have failed to pay wages on time on at least 3 occasions, their on the brink of going out of business and yet it's fine to bring another player in. They should be thrown out of the premeirship, the way they are run is a total joke.I do feel sorry for their fans though.

 

I heard he was actually signed on a free- in which case he could have gone to any club that could actually pay him. A loan would make more sense, especially if his parent club has agreed to continue paying his wages. If he is on a free, that just goes to prove how manipulative and poorly run the club is. They have clearly promised him the earth, yet cannon guarantee he will ever play a Premier League match. The sooner this whole sorry mess is over, the better.

The league will step in to keep them going to the end of season. The league would be a shambles if one drops out at this stage.

The league will step in to keep them going to the end of season. The league would be a shambles if one drops out at this stage.

 

I don't doubt that Scudamore and his cronies will do everything in their power to keep Pompey afloat to protect their precious reputation. The fact remains that this league will be a shambles either way. Club fails on Scudamore's watch= big problem. Club bailed out by Premier League= very dangerous precedent. It's a Catch 22 situation. Does the Premier League abandon its rule book and whatever shred of principles it has remaining and bail out a grossly mismanaged (some would say criminally mismanaged) club? Or does it hold firm and be accused of failing to act? The fact is the Premier League was unable to ensure that unfit people didn't take over football clubs in the first place. It is a mess all of their own making. Of course, as Gartside pointed out at the Fans Forum, football clubs are subject to corporate law as any other limited company and the FA cannot impose more stringent fit and proper tests than is already in place. That said, a wanted criminal was allowed to take over one club (Shinawatra at City), who wouldn't have passed the fit and proper persons test anyway!

 

This is all shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. The Premier League is attempting to cover up its own mistakes. Ultimately, football's bubble will burst and the loss of one relatively small club from the Premier League's ranks will be the very least of its problems!

We should hope they survive as for us to lose 3 points I think would be the final nail in our coffin.

Perhaps somebody who knows something about insolvency law could confirm whether you can't go into admin if a winding up petition is passed against you.

 

I thought that it was too bloody late.

 

You can still go into admin if winding up proceedings have been instigated. Unless I'm missing something, once they go into admin the moratorium will protect them from the winding up proceedings - which will essentially be put on hold unless the court gives permission to continue them. In which case, Pompey just need to make sure administrators are appointed before the winding up order is actually granted.

As I understand it the Premier League is basically an administrative body agreed to by the twenty clubs. What I mean is that if you think of the Premier League as a business then the shareholders of the Premier League are each of the twenty clubs who each own one share each.

 

In other words they are not separate to the clubs and cannot act independently of them.

 

So the other 19 clubs will have to agree to help Portsmouth before any help can be given.

 

I don't know if all 19 clubs have to agree - or just a simple majority - but what I'm trying to say is that it is not as straight forward as to them subbing Portsmouth out independently of the other teams.

 

The next court date is the 1st March - and if Portsmouth have not sorted out HM Revenue AND convinced the court that they can pay their debts (solvent) by then - then its bye bye Portsmouth!

You can still go into admin if winding up proceedings have been instigated. Unless I'm missing something, once they go into admin the moratorium will protect them from the winding up proceedings - which will essentially be put on hold unless the court gives permission to continue them. In which case, Pompey just need to make sure administrators are appointed before the winding up order is actually granted.

Pompey going into administration is best for Bwfc isn't it ?

 

They'd lose ten points ,guaranteeing their relegation ,while we lose nothing & there's one less relegation spot.

Pompey going into administration is best for Bwfc isn't it ?

 

They'd lose ten points ,guaranteeing their relegation ,while we lose nothing & there's one less relegation spot.

 

In a nutshell, I think that's right, yes (although it might be 9 points they lose, rather than 10). Some may argue it'd be better to liquidate, so West Spam etc lose more points than us, but I don't know the maths, nor what the consequences would be re relegation. I assume only 2 would go down then, but I'm not sure.

Pompey going into administration is best for Bwfc isn't it ?

 

They'd lose ten points ,guaranteeing their relegation ,while we lose nothing & there's one less relegation spot.

It's a very worrying time when Bolton fans are hoping Pompey will go into administration and thus get relegated so we can avoid the drop. We need to start winning games and get the points in and concentrate on our own destiny.

It's a very worrying time when Bolton fans are hoping Pompey will go into administration and thus get relegated so we can avoid the drop. We need to start winning games and get the points in and concentrate on our own destiny.

 

Couldn't have put it better- the impending demise of Pompey should not need to affect our survival chances. Hopefully it won't in the end.

 

Jol BWFC is right, it is only 9 points for administration in the Premier League, although this is a minimum penalty.

 

If Portsmouth are wound-up, only two clubs would be relegated to the Championship unless they decide to reduce the size of the Premier League. One extra team would survive in each division all the way down the pyramid. If they relegated three clubs and wanted twenty clubs in the division, they would have to promote an extra club. Not going to happen.

 

Even if it is possible to go into administration once winding-up proceedings have opened in court (and they have in Pompey's case), voluntary administration can only take place if a firm of administrators will take them on. Such a firm will only take on a company that is likely to be able to pay the administrator's fees. Somehow, I don't think any such firm would touch them. Voluntary Administration is really not an option. If it were, I think it would have happened already.

 

In any case, if Pompey went under on Wednesday, we would still have our game in hand and only be four points adrift with some very winnable six-pointers coming up. Worse than Pompey going bust now is if they went a few games before the end of the season (as could still happen even if they avoid being wound-up on Wednesday). We are due to play them at the Reebok in the third last game. Pompey's demise then would strip us of an easy three points and could leave us needing a win at Spurs and then at home to Birmingham. If we know what we are up against well in advance, we might stand a chance.

Edited February 13, 201016 yr by DeaneWhite

What is HMRC doing allowing Portsmouth to run up a debt of ?12m anyway? I have not read anything about this, so dont know the facts, but surely this has built up over a number of years and its only now, when Portsmouth are fucked, that they want their money back.

What is HMRC doing allowing Portsmouth to run up a debt of ?12m anyway? I have not read anything about this, so dont know the facts, but surely this has built up over a number of years and its only now, when Portsmouth are fucked, that they want their money back.

 

No, the money owed is in respect of VAT, PAYE and NI.

 

If you think that Portsmouth have had many players on fantastic salaries - Utaka for instance is still alleged to be on ?80,000 per WEEK - then the non payment of tax and National Insurance in respect of these wages will add up very, very quickly.

 

Then if you take into account that VAT is charged on transfer fees - and Portsmouth's recent dealings include the following approximate fees -

 

Lassana Diarra 20 million

Peter Crouch 10 million

Jermain Defoe 15.5 million

Sulley Ali Munatari 15 million

Glen Johnson 18 million

Gary O'Neil 5 million

Matthew Taylor 4 million

Younis kaboul 10 million

Sylvan Distan 3.5 million

Asmir Bergovic 3 million

 

...then once again you will see the any non-payment of VAT will accrue extremely quickly.

 

Portsmouth have clearly had cash flow difficulties and have used the money they should have used to pay HM Revenue elsewhere over the last year or so. This is not a problem that dates back many years as you seem to think.

 

Hope this explanation helps.