Liverpool are awful

pablo, who was the young kid brought up in germany who played for our u21s?

Lewis holtby I think

Lewis holtby I think

 

Nah, he only ever played for Germany.

 

Owen Hargreaves aint it ?

The problem in England is when a player gets to 18-21 they stagnate. It's not due to inferior technique. The Spanish, German, French, Italian and Portuguese leagues give their talented kids a chance at that age, whereas in England the culture is much less forgiving. The vast majority of managers (with a few exceptions) prefer experienced players, even if they're average, and fans are not willing to show young players patience.

 

Also, coaching has improved at junior levels but it still hasn't caught up yet in senior football where there are still a lot of dinosaurs around.

 

England won't compete until we have a higher number of coaches who know what they're doing.

But the whole reason that the players we mentioned before aren't included in the 21s (putting out our strongest team) is because they have been given a chance and they are now regulars in the 1st team.

 

You can't argue to not rush kids through, then also argue that they aren't given the chance!

 

Basically we haven't got as many good senior players as Spain/Germany/Italy, that means our 1st team is more shit than theirs, that means that as soon as one of the younger players gets to a half decent level then they are put in the 1st team because they are generally replacing a more experienced player who is a bit shit, that means that they will no longer play in the U21s which means we put an under strength team out.

 

Just because a player is under 21 it doesn't mean they should be playing in the under 21s. Would you have had a 20 year old Wayne Rooney turning out for an U21 tournament after he's played 20/30 times for England already? There would have been no benefit whatsoever.

yeah, probably right

 

and he didnt play for us at all

 

 

which is how i misled pablo

Edited June 28, 20178 yr by Casino

Nah, he only ever played for Germany.

 

Owen Hargreaves aint it ?

Aye you're spot on. Apologies

But the whole reason that the players we mentioned before aren't included in the 21s (putting out our strongest team) is because they have been given a chance and they are now regulars in the 1st team.

 

You can't argue to not rush kids through, then also argue that they aren't given the chance!

 

Basically we haven't got as many good senior players as Spain/Germany/Italy, that means our 1st team is more shit than theirs, that means that as soon as one of the younger players gets to a half decent level then they are put in the 1st team because they are generally replacing a more experienced player who is a bit shit, that means that they will no longer play in the U21s which means we put an under strength team out.

 

Just because a player is under 21 it doesn't mean they should be playing in the under 21s. Would you have had a 20 year old Wayne Rooney turning out for an U21 tournament after he's played 20/30 times for England already? There would have been no benefit whatsoever.

 

 

Few things here. When we say "not giving them a chance" that means senior elite club football.

 

Just saying "we havent got as many good senior players", this is the point we are making. In order to produce better senior players, we need to stop rushing them into senior International team.

 

The U21 Germany/Italy/Spain players are getting loadas or top level football, and are getting the chance to make mistakes and grow. We dont do that.

 

Many of our U21 team, is 2nd playing tier football.....due to not getting games in the top league.

 

 

EDIT : On Rooney, maybe thats whay now at 30...he seems fooked, becuase we have had him playing in pretty much every game since he was 18!!!!

Edited June 28, 20178 yr by Pablo

I think another reason is they're just not good enough to compete with the other nations like Spain and Germany.

 

Man for man these teams have better players technically and that plays out on the field.

 

I don't buy into the fact that we underperform as a nation I think we don't help ourselves to extract the best out of the players we have. But when it comes down to it we aren't as good as people would like us to believe

I think another reason is they're just not good enough to compete with the other nations like Spain and Germany.

 

Man for man these teams have better players technically and that plays out on the field.

 

I don't buy into the fact that we underperform as a nation I think we don't help ourselves to extract the best out of the players we have. But when it comes down to it we aren't as good as people would like us to believe

 

 

You add the players that should have been playing, maybe we actually come closer than you say.

Potentially yes but then this should filter through into the senior team shouldn't it and we should be closer at that level than we are then?

 

All subjective of course it is I just feel we lack the superstar players that these countries and the Argentinas and Brazil's produce

 

Where our are neymars etc?

 

The tactics we play don't help as well. Too negative at all levels really

Few things here. When we say "not giving them a chance" that means senior elite club football.

 

Just saying "we havent got as many good senior players", this is the point we are making. In order to produce better senior players, we need to stop rushing them into senior International team.

 

The U21 Germany/Italy/Spain players are getting loadas or top level football, and are getting the chance to make mistakes and grow. We dont do that.

 

Many of our U21 team, is 2nd playing tier football.....due to not getting games in the top league.

 

 

EDIT : On Rooney, maybe thats whay now at 30...he seems fooked, becuase we have had him playing in pretty much every game since he was 18!!!!

Ok - 2 different arguments.

 

I fully agree that young English players should be given more chances with the top teams. Holding is a prime example as he was chucked in due to injury and ended up as a starting centre back in an FA cup winning team.

 

But... we do have the equivalent players to those turning out for the other U21 teams. We've got young English players that are playing regularly for the top teams, it just so happens that they are in the senior squad rather than the U21 squad because there is a load of shit ahead of them.

 

I don't see any other option, do we not pick Dele Alli because we want him to develop in the U21s? Instead we carry on picking a retired Steven Gerrard until Alli reaches 22 and we are happy for him to make the step up? There'd be uproar if Alli was left out of the senior England team, and rightly so.

 

It goes back to what I said before, it's a viscous circle, we have to put these lads in the 1st team because what went before was shit. Hopefully they will form the base of the team for the next 5-7 years which will give the future young stars time to sit in the U21s and 'develop'.

 

As for Rooney... maybe it has contributed, but he was unplayable at times on a world level. Ronaldo was also a senior Portugal regular from the age of 18 and he doesn't look to be paying too much for it.

Ok - 2 different arguments.

 

I fully agree that young English players should be given more chances with the top teams. Holding is a prime example as he was chucked in due to injury and ended up as a starting centre back in an FA cup winning team.

 

But... we do have the equivalent players to those turning out for the other U21 teams. We've got young English players that are playing regularly for the top teams, it just so happens that they are in the senior squad rather than the U21 squad because there is a load of shit ahead of them.

 

I don't see any other option, do we not pick Dele Alli because we want him to develop in the U21s? Instead we carry on picking a retired Steven Gerrard until Alli reaches 22 and we are happy for him to make the step up? There'd be uproar if Alli was left out of the senior England team, and rightly so.

 

It goes back to what I said before, it's a viscous circle, we have to put these lads in the 1st team because what went before was shit. Hopefully they will form the base of the team for the next 5-7 years which will give the future young stars time to sit in the U21s and 'develop'.

 

As for Rooney... maybe it has contributed, but he was unplayable at times on a world level. Ronaldo was also a senior Portugal regular from the age of 18 and he doesn't look to be paying too much for it.

 

 

Erm, YES....completely. Along with 4 or 5 of that senior team.

 

What impact are they really have on that senior team anyway ???

 

 

To keep on doing what we are, is a sign of madness, and seems people dont want it to change.

Edited June 28, 20178 yr by Pablo

Erm, YES....completely. Along with 4 or 5 of that senior team.

 

What impact are they really have on that senior team anyway ???

Helping us qualify for a World Cup?

 

I can't believe you're actually suggesting that we don't pick one of the best players in the Prem for England because of his age.

 

It would be bad enough just him missing, but no Stones, Sterling, Dier, Rashford etc and Southgate would be sectioned - we just don't have the other options to leave these players out.

 

Seriously, what would your starting line up for England be?

Edited June 28, 20178 yr by Eddie

Helping us qualify for a World Cup?

 

I can't believe you're actually suggesting that we don't pick one of the best players in the Prem for England because of his age.

 

It would be bad enough just him missing, but no Stones, Sterling, Dier, Rashford etc and Southgate would be sectioned - we just don't have the other options to leave these players out.

 

Seriously, what would your starting line up for England be?

What does it matter?? Its shite with them in it anyway.

 

Point is, maybe they dont NEED to play every senior game when we have elite U21 tournys.

 

This whole point is completely lost on so many.

Edited June 28, 20178 yr by Pablo

What does it matter?? Its shite with them in it anyway.

Point is, maybe they dont NEED to play every senior game when we have elite U21 tournys.

This whole point is completely lost on so many.

At first your point does seem odd. But thinking about it there's probably something to it. After all, once these younger players have served out their time in the u21 and got the seniors then there would be a continual flow of youngsters to follow. Just means that maybe there would be one period of a couple of years where there were few "kids" in the senior team.

Makes sense actually, when you look at Ali, and sterling they don't seem to perform so well the top level. Perhaps a more gradual growing up period would be better.

At first your point does seem odd. But thinking about it there's probably something to it. After all, once these younger players have served out their time in the u21 and got the seniors then there would be a continual flow of youngsters to follow. Just means that maybe there would be one period of a couple of years where there were few "kids" in the senior team.

Makes sense actually, when you look at Ali, and sterling they don't seem to perform so well the top level. Perhaps a more gradual growing up period would be better.

 

Exactly.

 

Its that 20-23 Group. We dont seem very good at turning kids into men, the final stage really.

Duncan Edwards played in the majority of his club's first team matches in 1953-54, plus 4 England 'B' matches, then turned out for both legs of the FA Youth Cup Final.

He then did 2 years of National Service, based in Shropshire, and played 180 matches in that period including 9 for England.

Exactly.

Its that 20-23 Group. We dont seem very good at turning kids into men, the final stage really.

Do you reckon the money they get at such a young age can be a factor too?

Not only how they see themselves, but also pressure on them to perform, because they're worth umpteen million pounds.

Do you reckon the money they get at such a young age can be a factor too?

Not only how they see themselves, but also pressure on them to perform, because they're worth umpteen million pounds.

Im sure it has some factor, but the same age kids abroad also get big wages etc, doesnt seem to be an issue for them.

 

Press and fan pressure is huge, we are very impatient....the whole prem is all about fast results NOW, probably why many foreign managers wont put more trust in English kids.

 

I would love to see some rule, like the old none Euro player limits in euro games.

Edited June 28, 20178 yr by Pablo

Wouldn't argue with that.

What about a rule that up to say, 23, any wages above a certain level have to be paid into a trust or suchlike. Protect a player from doing a Merson, and keep them grounded.

What does it matter?? Its shite with them in it anyway.

 

Point is, maybe they dont NEED to play every senior game when we have elite U21 tournys.

 

This whole point is completely lost on so many.

Agree completely with you on this. The English attitude to u21 stinks, very similar to the Europa league. We seem to think we are a bit above this

Chile beat Portugal 3-0 on pens, all 3 went in for Chile and 3 by Portugal were saved by Bravo, Ronaldo waiting till last again, never got to take one.

Chile beat Portugal 3-0 on pens, all 3 went in for Chile and 3 by Portugal were saved by Bravo, Ronaldo waiting till last again, never got to take one.

 

 

Why on earth was that deemed more important than Corrie?

Why on earth was that deemed more important than Corrie?

 

Maybe if it was say Australia vs New Zealand it'd been on ITV4

Maybe if it was say Australia vs New Zealand it'd been on ITV4

Portugal v Chile is no more interesting than Australia v New Zealand.

 

I'll bet the viewing figures for that match are awful, and probably 1/10th what they would of got had Coronation Street been in its usual slot