Can we not have anything debt related discussed in here please rather than every bastard thread turning into the same discussion??

Edited August 4, 201510 yr by gonzo

No I'm not...but anyone with a simple grasp of arithmetic can see those accounts don't add up.

 

Incorrect again.

 

They do add up, to the round thousand. They reconcile from note to note and from statement to statement, Deloitte will have performed about 10-15 checks through the audit process to ensure that.

 

Just to try and put your mind at ease about this £16m player spend that you seem a bit confused about.

 

Between 1st July 2012 and 30th June 2013 we spent £6m on players (I'm going to take an educated guess that this will include the fees to purchase and loans etc, but not wages)

Between 1st July 2013 and 30th June 2014 we spent £9.8m on players

If the accounts are all wrong surely some journo could make a name for them self by doing an expose.

 

As I see it Eddie has done the job of going through independently audited accounts to show some answers and those who disagree just call bullshit without anything concrete themselves

lets say we bunged petrov 500k to go, where would that fall?

Just repeating it doesn't make it any less insane, Eddie. If you told every season ticket holder who endured the 13/14 season that that team had had £10m net spent on it - when the manager in charge had constantly told them he was cutting costs, and the evidence was before their eyes - they'd think you'd lost the plot.

I want some of this glue he's on

Just repeating it doesn't make it any less insane, Eddie. If you told every season ticket holder who endured the 13/14 season that that team had had £10m net spent on it - when the manager in charge had constantly told them he was cutting costs, and the evidence was before their eyes - they'd think you'd lost the plot.

You think £10 million is a lot of money for an entire year? It's 2015 not 1985.

Just repeating it doesn't make it any less insane, Eddie. If you told every season ticket holder who endured the 13/14 season that that team had had £10m net spent on it - when the manager in charge had constantly told them he was cutting costs, and the evidence was before their eyes - they'd think you'd lost the plot.

 

The irony of repeating and insanity!

 

So because thousands of (mainly) people who aren't chartered accountants, saw a shit season, driven by a shit manager and got told a few things in the press, the audited accounts are clearly incorrect.

 

I give up.

Just like to say to Eddie thanks for that analysis, nothing more to say for me on this now. Back to supporting the team 

Baptiste

Spearing

Moritz

Rob Hall

Neil Danns

Feeney

Craig Davies

Tierny

All came in 2013/14 either signed or loan.

 

There's a few bob there in loan fees and signing on fees.

Edited August 26, 201510 yr by gonzo

Just repeating it doesn't make it any less insane, Eddie. If you told every season ticket holder who endured the 13/14 season that that team had had £10m net spent on it - when the manager in charge had constantly told them he was cutting costs, and the evidence was before their eyes - they'd think you'd lost the plot.

David

 

Your dedication to all things fan related is admirable. Your keen, it's great.

 

You are, however, so far out of your depth with Eddie that with every new swivel eyed post you are looking increasingly insane.

 

As I said earlier, there are maybe a couple of members here that I'd trust with numbers.

 

Eddie is one of them. You are not the other.

But it's not spending for a total year - those figures say cash outflow on purchase of players. PURCHASE of players. Except we haven't actually purchased any (bar Spearing). And those we have brought in for fuck all fee have been paid considerably less than those they've replaced. Nobody has answered that basic and glaring inconsistency. Let alone come up with a figure approaching £10m, or £16m - choose any figure you like - Phil has. I'm sorry if it feels a bit like that time you found out Father Christmas doesn't exist, but delusion and denial isn't going to get us out of this mess. What is is another question entirely.

Signing on fees and loan fees paid to parent clubs will come under the outflow bracket you spoon.

But it's not spending for a total year - those figures say cash outflow on purchase of players. PURCHASE of players. Except we haven't actually purchased any (bar Spearing). And those we have brought in for fuck all fee have been paid considerably less than those they've replaced. Nobody has answered that basic and glaring inconsistency. Let alone come up with a figure approaching £10m, or £16m - choose any figure you like - Phil has. I'm sorry if it feels a bit like that time you found out Father Christmas doesn't exist, but delusion and denial isn't going to get us out of this mess. What is is another question entirely.

Honestly. Stop.

 

You're a nice chap.

Signing on fees and loan fees paid to parent clubs will come under the outflow bracket you spoon.

 

hahaha

 

 

spoon!

But it's not spending for a total year - those figures say cash outflow on purchase of players. PURCHASE of players. Except we haven't actually purchased any (bar Spearing). And those we have brought in for fuck all fee have been paid considerably less than those they've replaced. Nobody has answered that basic and glaring inconsistency. Let alone come up with a figure approaching £10m, or £16m - choose any figure you like - Phil has. I'm sorry if it feels a bit like that time you found out Father Christmas doesn't exist, but delusion and denial isn't going to get us out of this mess. What is is another question entirely.

 

I've come to the conclusion that you must have an agenda.

 

Cold hard facts, signed audited accounts and numerous counter arguments from someone who appears to have more accounting experience than yourself and you still can't accept that you are wrong.

If £10m was sanctioned on that lot then it proves my point that PG shouldn't be anywhere near the BWFC accounts.

 

But I will stop, Spider. You've got your views on the people in charge, I've got mine. Let's leave it there. And on to 3 points at Ewood.

I've come to the conclusion that you must have an agenda.

 

 

you had me fooled

 

i thought you were a bright lad but if its taken you til now to get that, im not so sure

My agenda is BWFC. Why the fuck would I be wasting my time on here otherwise? ????

you had me fooled

 

i thought you were a bright lad but if its taken you til now to get that, im not so sure

 

I like to give the benefit of the doubt, I thought he might just have read the accounts wrong.

If £10m was sanctioned on that lot then it proves my point that PG shouldn't be anywhere near the BWFC accounts.

 

But I will stop, Spider. You've got your views on the people in charge, I've got mine. Let's leave it there. And on to 3 points at Ewood.

"On that lot" you are talking out of your arse. £10m is pocket change in football. Nicky hunt is shite but a millionaire. That should prove it

Who's money are we using to pay these apparent 'millions' to Eddie Davies?

 

Do you not understand that if we pay Eddie millions in interest, then he just has to give it us back (and more) because we aren't self sustainable. Every year since 2008 the loan to ED has gone up, if he then actually collects the interest that he charged us then all he is doing is increasing the amount of cash that he has to loan us back.

 

For example:

 

Financial CASH shortfall for the year (not the reported loss) is say £10m

Our interest charge for the year on ED's loan is say £3m

We pay ED (Moonshift) that £3m interest then suddenly our cash shortfall is £13m

 

Guess who gives us that £13m as a loan???

 

Seen as there seems to be a lot of people willing to drag ED's name through the mud, when actually he has been nothing short of a saint for us (and because I had a long train journey this morning with access to all the accounts) I decided to have a look through them and finally get a solid answer on just how much cash ED (Moonshift) has put into BWFC.

 

ED took over in 2004 and we turned a profit 04/05/06. The 1st notable cash inflow from him is the sponsorship of the new training ground in 07, he paid us £3.5m which was not part of the loan, it was a cash sum that was not to be paid back.

 

08 - he gave us the 1st loan of £4.5m

09 - Loan increased to £23m however there were 'charges from Moonshift in relation to interest and arrangement fees' of £2m - This means that the actual cash increase from Moonshift, net of their charges to us, was £16.5m

10 - Loan increased to £85m!!! Same charges as above, this time of £4m - Net cash increase in loan was £58m (We paid off the majority of the bank loan and spent £16m on players)

11 - Loan increased to £99m. Charges from Moonshift of £5m - Net cash increase in loan of £9m

12 - Loan increased to £125m. Charges from Moonshift of £5.5m - Net cash increase in loan of £20.5m

13 - Loan increased to £151m. Charges from Moonshift of £7m - Net cash increase in loan of £19m

14 - Loan increased to £174m. Charges from Moonshift of £0.1m - Net cash increase in loan of £22.9m

 

That gives a total cash loan from Moonshift, taking off the 'charges' (which is where the whole interest payment bullshit lies) to us each year, of just over £150m. For that money he now has some assets such as the ground and the training ground, but a lot of it was spent paying for our 10 years of success. How anyone can question what he has done for this club is frightening, I know Gartside has his critics but to to bring ED into it just proves you're a mentalist IMO.

 

A few other things of note whilst I was going through them:

Net cash spend on players 2004-2014 = £60m

Net cash spend on players 2007-2014 = £54m

Net cash spend on players 2013-2014 = £13m (proves that we went shit or bust at bouncing straight back up)

 

Average group turnover 2004-2014 = £52.5m

Average group turnover 2004-2012 = £56m

Average group turnover 2013-2014 = £36.5m

 

Salaries as a % of group turnover from 04 to 09 was always high 40's to high 50's - 2010 then shot up to 79% and stayed up there to 2013 where it reached 93% but then dropped to 68% in 2014.

 

Average gate receipts 2004-2014 = £6.5m

Average gate receipts 2004-2012 = £7.2m

Average gate receipts 2013-2014 = £3.5m

 

Use that as you want, it kept me entertained for a couple of hours and hopefully shuts any twats up that have managed to get it in their head that ED has miraculously made money through his 10 years owning Bolton Wanderers.

Eddie

 

Great post for me, thank you for simplifying complex accounts to the layman

 

A question; you quote partly in season, I.e. 2013-2014

 

However elsewhere by year, "in 2014..."

 

Can you clarify for the hard of thinking (as in me) that the latter means the same as the former; 2013-2014 for example?

 

Thanks again, and however it's interpreted....best post ever on this subject in my opinion

 

Cheers

If £10m was sanctioned on that lot then it proves my point that PG shouldn't be anywhere near the BWFC accounts.

 

But I will stop, Spider. You've got your views on the people in charge, I've got mine. Let's leave it there. And on to 3 points at Ewood.

That begs the question who do you think should control the budget for players / transfers?

 

For me it's the chairman that should say the manager has £X to spend for the season and its up to the manager to decide how it's spent.... Wages, transfer fees, signing on fees etc

 

You've mentioned Spearing a lot, I bet he's cost is a few quid all in (loan fee, transfer fee, signing on fee, agents fees, wages, medical fees)

 

Who's fault was Spearing.....

 

A) ED for paying for it

PG for sanctioning it

C) the manager for signing him

D) the fans for singing "sign him on"

 

You choose

Edited August 27, 201510 yr by birch-chorley

P.s good work Eddie

 

You've done the leg work on behalf of many of us who know this is not some JFK style cover up

If £10m was sanctioned on that lot then it proves my point that PG shouldn't be anywhere near the BWFC accounts.

 

But I will stop, Spider. You've got your views on the people in charge, I've got mine. Let's leave it there. And on to 3 points at Ewood.

You've now changed the beat of your drum from "the figures don't add up" to "they're all wankers". Eddie's cold facts left you nowhere to go.

 

That's ok, if you'd just said that in the first place you'd have sounded less like someone throwing his shoes at the sky to get rid of the clouds.

 

Opinions are fine. There are people out there who still think the earth is round.

 

Your love for the club shines through though,

Edited August 27, 201510 yr by Spider