madthatter Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 (edited) It's very ideological but unrealistic and impractical. I agree about the ideology bit but that's why it will only work if folk go into it voluntarily. There are examples of this working all over the world: Monasteries, kibbutz, eco-communities and so on. You could argue they are meaningless as they are so small but they show that when folk agree to work with and for each other they can do amazing things - and create happy communities. That's why I have a soft spot for the ideal as I know it can work and people can thrive. On a tangent - I reckon our long term survival as a species needs more of that kind of thinking and living. Unchecked capitalism will kill us all eventually. When nation states like Russia or China enforce it on the population what you really have is a dictatorship that masquerades as communism rather than actual communism. I'm not a hater of capitalism btw - like said above it works but it does need regulation; no system is perfect because we're not perfect Edited May 12, 2018 by madthatter Quote
madthatter Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 It is working for them. Because it's not the 'communism' that people think of when they conjure up the image. It's evolved and it embraces elements of capitalism. The idea that you can't buy what you want in these countries is decades old. If you spent some time there - like you and Zico have - you'd be hard pressed to notice much difference (apart from the flags). Anyway - I was just making the point that in some instances Communism does seam to be working - just like in some instances - capitalism doesn't seem to be. Just because East Berlin floundered while West Berlin flourished isn't necessarily the full story - the outcome was influenced by the historical and social context of the period. Anyway - for those that think I'm agitating for a communist system in the UK (I'm not) - but I do think it's daft to say it can/has/will never work. No, I agree - see my post above Like the right and left today, ideas of communism and capitalism aren't as clear cut in practice as they may appear on paper Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 It is working for them. Because it's not the 'communism' that people think of when they conjure up the image. It's evolved and it embraces elements of capitalism. The idea that you can't buy what you want in these countries is decades old. If you spent some time there - like you and Zico have - you'd be hard pressed to notice much difference (apart from the flags). Anyway - I was just making the point that in some instances Communism does seam to be working - just like in some instances - capitalism doesn't seem to be. Just because East Berlin floundered while West Berlin flourished isn't necessarily the full story - the outcome was influenced by the historical and social context of the period. Anyway - for those that think I'm agitating for a communist system in the UK (I'm not) - but I do think it's daft to say it can/has/will never work. One of the main pillars of communism is for only state, not private, ownership. China, Vietnam et al are therefore not communist. And, therefore, have a chance of working! Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 One of the main pillars of communism is for only state, not private, ownership. China, Vietnam et al are therefore not communist. And, therefore, have a chance of working! Well indeed. And it shows there are a huge range of models between communism and rampant free market capitalism. Also shows anyone calling Corbyn a Commie is being utterly ridiculous. Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Well indeed. And it shows there are a huge range of models between communism and rampant free market capitalism. Also shows anyone calling Corbyn a Commie is being utterly ridiculous. How's about John McConnell? Quote
Salford Trotter Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 How's about John McConnell? McDonnell aligns himself to Marxism but I couldn't tell you how that differs to Communism Quote
gonzo Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Just a question, why is it ok for the US to have nuclear weapons but not anyone else? Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Just a question, why is it ok for the US to have nuclear weapons but not anyone else? Because they can be trusted not to use them? Quote
kent_white Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Because they can be trusted not to use them? Apart from the two occasions when they have. Quote
kent_white Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 One of the main pillars of communism is for only state, not private, ownership. China, Vietnam et al are therefore not communist. And, therefore, have a chance of working! Maybe things have moved on since 1848? Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Apart from the two occasions when they have. It was a joke! Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Maybe things have moved on since 1848? Eh, maybe! New, improved, communism. Now with added market force catalysts! Quote
kent_white Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 It was a joke! Hard to tell on a forum - that's why I end up putting smiley faces after everything! Quote
bolty58 Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Is it fuck as daft. You can't point me to one success story. China has pretty much proved the horseshoe theory since letting their industrious masses loose. Some of their repressive actions are not far from what Nazi Germany did (Holocaust excluded). Political opponents just disappear. Running through the rest of them - the Soviet Bloc failed, North Korea and Cuba are fucking basket cases, Venezuela is a (Corbynista admired) joke which will collapse and don't even mention the Khmer Rouge. It can't/hasn't and will never work for one simple reason. It removes human aspiration to better one's lot. The end. Quote
Guest Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Hard to tell on a forum - that's why I end up putting smiley faces after everything! Don’t know how to do a smiley face Quote
kent_white Posted May 12, 2018 Posted May 12, 2018 Don’t know how to do a smiley face : and then ) With no spaces of course! Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted May 13, 2018 Posted May 13, 2018 How do you draw a cock and balls? Quote
Not in Crawley Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Is it fuck as daft. You can't point me to one success story. China has pretty much proved the horseshoe theory since letting their industrious masses loose. Some of their repressive actions are not far from what Nazi Germany did (Holocaust excluded). Political opponents just disappear. Running through the rest of them - the Soviet Bloc failed, North Korea and Cuba are fucking basket cases, Venezuela is a (Corbynista admired) joke which will collapse and don't even mention the Khmer Rouge. It can't/hasn't and will never work for one simple reason. It removes human aspiration to better one's lot. The end. Went to a Russian performances of Life and Fate on Saturday, absolutely stunning. Anyway, the novel is worth a read but if you can’t be bothered, there is a radio 4 play that’s its serialised. Anyway, upshot is of the novel is to see the axis between Trotskyism and Germany’s National Socialism. Also the debates between the Trots of ‘Socialism in One Country’ and the more liberal who wanted s more United Europe. Ultimately, there is not one form of Communism, Socialism or indeed Capitalism. Quote
kent_white Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 the novel is worth a read but if you can’t be bothered, there is a radio 4 play that’s its serialised. What if you can't be bothered listening to the Radio 4 play? Quote
Not in Crawley Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Get a theatre ticket, it’s only 3 hours, shortest of the lot. Ends Thursday. Cheapest ticket a prole scaring 90 odd quid comrade. Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) Get a theatre ticket, it’s only 3 hours, shortest of the lot. Ends Thursday. Cheapest ticket a prole scaring 90 odd quid comrade. For the many....., Edited May 14, 2018 by boltondiver Quote
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