is that it now game over no chance of POTUS

 

Rayguns out

19 minutes ago, Spider said:

Why would anyone blame Trump for this?

 

Because some are so blinded by visceral hatred that they will find a link somehow to lay everything bad at his door.

Thank fuck we visonaries are members of the historicals rather than the hystericals.

2 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

Thank fuck we visonaries are members of the historicals rather than the hystericals.

Do you have to have a couple of ribs removed to perform such remarkable acts of self fellatio?

3 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

Because some are so blinded by visceral hatred that they will find a link somehow to lay everything bad at his door.

Thank fuck we visonaries are members of the historicals rather than the hystericals.

It’s possible to believe that Trump didn’t shoot down a passenger plane whilst simultaneously believing that he’s clueless about the Middle East.

Doublethink isn’t for everyone of course, but some of us are capable of independent thought based on the facts available to us at any given time.

With it being Ukrainian plane what’s the chances of putin having something to do with this. Tin foil hat territory but worlds gone mad. 

Edited January 10, 20206 yr by Mounts Kipper

8 hours ago, royal white said:

Trump was hammered by certain folk last week for killing a ‘bad guy’ 

Its now looking increasingly  likely that  Iran have taken out a civilian airline killing all onboard yet the silence is deafening. 
 

Very odd 🙄

You seem to have this a bit backwards. Nobody minds bad and disruptive guys being taken out - the worry was the way this was done and the subsequent rhetoric and what it would stir up. 

Since then Iran has launched missiles at US military sites and possibly taken down a plane. So killing him hasn't improved the situation. And now things are worse. This is ok if Trump has a grand plan to sort the situation out very rapidly in the coming few days. But if not we're seeing the escalating tensions and loss of life everyone feared.

And the plane being shot down isn't Trump's fault. Nobody is backing Iran. I think all we want is calm and measured actions not shooting from the hip and then worrying about the consequences later. This all feels very uncalculated. 

In case there was any doubt it was shot down...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51055219

26 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

With it being Ukrainian plane what’s the chances of putin having something to do with this. Tin foil hat territory but worlds gone mad. 

Doubt it, to be honest. Though wouldn't be all that surprised as he has form, as Malaysian Airlines will testify.

His eyes are on Europe, the middle east is a wasps nest he knows he can poke anytime he wants.

Iran need to explain themselves very quickly or bizarrely this could get messy without any influence from the Don.

1 hour ago, bolty58 said:

Because some are so blinded by visceral hatred that they will find a link somehow to lay everything bad at his door.

Thank fuck we visonaries are members of the historicals rather than the hystericals.

Quite remarkable

It certainly appears Iran have shot it down and are therefore to blame.  They shot it down during a period of heightened tension in the region and just a few days after tit for tat bombings. Trump/the US arent without culpability in all this. 

I wonder how many of those on board were actually fleeing the area before the Iran/USA issues escalated.

49 minutes ago, Duck Egg said:

It certainly appears Iran have shot it down and are therefore to blame.  They shot it down during a period of heightened tension in the region and just a few days after tit for tat bombings. Trump/the US arent without culpability in all this. 

And there is my point proven. 
 

whether there is a war or not. Iran are 100% to blame this is their reaction And it falls on them  trump isn’t culpable  and it’s astonishing that you say so 

is trump/US culpable in some way for the Missile attacks  on their base? Absolutely it’s targeted retaliation and expected 

Is trump or anyone but the Iranians who shot down a civilian passenger plane culpable? Absolutely not 
 

you want to try and explain your viewpoint to the families of all those killed?

 

 

4 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

And there is my point proven. 
 

whether there is a war or not. Iran are 100% to blame this is their reaction And it falls on them  trump isn’t culpable  and it’s astonishing that you say so 

is trump/US culpable in some way for the Missile attacks  on their base? Absolutely it’s targeted retaliation and expected 

Is trump or anyone but the Iranians who shot down a civilian passenger plane culpable? Absolutely not 
 

you want to try and explain your viewpoint to the families of all those killed?

 

 

When people said there was a risk the USA's action would escalate tensions this sort of thing is what they feared.

Loss of life of innocent people because the tension is only heightened. It's Iran's fault - but actions have consequences. And it would be nice if those consequences were considered a bit more rather than just social media angry bluster from a man who could lead us down a road for more loss of life. 

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

When people said there was a risk the USA's action would escalate tensions this sort of thing is what they feared.

Loss of life of innocent people because the tension is only heightened. It's Iran's fault - but actions have consequences. And it would be nice if those consequences were considered a bit more rather than just social media angry bluster from a man who could lead us down a road for more loss of life. 

So his twitter usage contributed In some way to the plane being shot down correct? Is that what you are saying? Just so I’m clear and have the gas oven on full ready waiting for you answer to plunge my head in 

Edited January 10, 20206 yr by Escobarp

Would this plane have been shot down if Trump hadn't killed the Quds guy? Probably not.

Is this Trump's fault? No

Is the middle east an entire bag of shit? yes

54 minutes ago, MickyD said:

I wonder how many of those on board were actually fleeing the area before the Iran/USA issues escalated.

Lots were students returning to Canada after vacation with family, using split tickets Tehran to Kyiv, Kyiv to Toronto.

1 minute ago, Spider said:

Would this plane have been shot down if Trump hadn't killed the Quds guy? Probably not.

Is this Trump's fault? No

Is the middle east an entire bag of shit? yes

Would the plane have been shot down if the pilot didn’t take it down the runaway and take off? No. Is he culpable ? No 

Just now, Escobarp said:

Would the plane have been shot down if the pilot didn’t take it down the runaway and take off? No. Is he culpable ? No 

exactly

you cannot try and consider what is an infinite number of outcomes for every decision you make.

It's about calculation

If I go out in my car 3 minutes later because I forgot my bag, and die in a motorway crash, whose fault is that?

6 minutes ago, Spider said:

exactly

you cannot try and consider what is an infinite number of outcomes for every decision you make.

It's about calculation

If I go out in my car 3 minutes later because I forgot my bag, and die in a motorway crash, whose fault is that?

Agreed. Some things you can account for and you undertake the action knowing some of the clear consequences. 
 

some are completely and utterly unseen such as this plane being shot down and even then the links are being manufactured to point the finger as trump because people don’t like him or his beliefs/statements  I’m not defending his every move by the way  

but there is nothing here that tells me his is culpable for this attack in anyway 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Agreed. Some things you can account for and you undertake the action knowing some of the clear consequences. 
 

some are completely and utterly unseen such as this plane being shot down and even then the links are being manufactured to point the finger as trump because people don’t like him or his beliefs/statements  I’m not defending his every move by the way  

but there is nothing here that tells me his is culpable for this attack in anyway 

 

 

He isn't. Thick, gormless idiot he may be, but this is like blaming him for a VAR goal being disallowed because it uses technology developed in the USA.

The haters will have to just concentrate on that wall in Colorado for now.

48 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

So his twitter usage contributed In some way to the plane being shot down correct? Is that what you are saying? Just so I’m clear and have the gas oven on full ready waiting for you answer to plunge my head in 

No. My point was that any actions like this have consequences. And we'd all be a lot happier with a calm, focussed and considered response that we could then say reflected the gravity of decisions. In essence the USA are as unpredictable right now as Iran. Its not conducive for calming things down. 

If you're leader of the USA and you commit to kill a "bad guy" in an unstable region, you have to own the aftermath and consequences. And doing so in a calm and considered and thoughtful way is important. 

Killing bad people may be a good thing in some people's views - like the war in Iraq - but the consequences are not simple, not easy to predict and very very hard to manage. And this is why Boris' response was spot on - yes nobody will mourn his death but the aftermath is worrying and everyone on both sides needs to calm down!

32 minutes ago, MalcolmW said:

Lots were students returning to Canada after vacation with family, using split tickets Tehran to Kyiv, Kyiv to Toronto.

Has there been a change is spelling or was Kiev always wrong?

19 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Has there been a change is spelling or was Kiev always wrong?

It's the transliteration of the Ukrainian name for the city as opposed to the Russian name.

20 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Has there been a change is spelling or was Kiev always wrong?

I believe Kiev is the Russian version of the name

Thanks chaps. More correctly politically I suppose, and right too.

video of it being hit, they say..

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/video/iran-plane-missile.html

mad, like that malaysia one , from a bit back..

mh17 , i think.. 

that also had rus/ukraine Anti Aircraft TOR/BUK missile fired by a guy trained on an xbox.

 

Edited January 10, 20206 yr by e2e4
missile name added