Politics

[Mounts Kipper]

5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47739303

Nothing in that report says that deals are worse than current deals, just not completed. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Tonge moor green jacket]

33 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

What deals have we signed that are not as good as the deals we have as an EU member? 

Iirc, we can't legally sign any new trade deals until we've left..on that basis, continuity agreements are vital. Even if we left them there, and things carried on as they are, then that wouldn't see a drop in value, and perhaps may see an increase.

A perfectly reasonable, and sensible starting point.

[Mounts Kipper]

Just now, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Iirc, we can't legally sign any new trade deals until we've left..on that basis, continuity agreements are vital. Even if we left them there, and things carried on as they are, then that wouldn't see a drop in value, and perhaps may see an increase.

A perfectly reasonable, and sensible starting point.

Absolutely correct, Fan 5 assumption that we’ve signed worse deals is as I thought just lies. 

[bwfcfan5]

13 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Nothing in that report says that deals are worse than current deals, just not completed. 

Can you read? This is after said agreements were published. The agreements were done and come into force as soon as we leave. 

Quote

They concluded that the agreements are "incomplete" and would likely mean additional costs and potential shortfalls in orders for UK firms.

 

[peelyfeet]

6 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

I am beginning to believe that remainers have become 'institutionalised' like long term prisoners. Just can't cut it in the outside world where you have to plough your own furrow and, given the chance, would reoffend in an instant to get back into the institution.

Prefer to have their lives planned out for them with a rigid set of rules - breakfast at 6am, shitting at 7am, exercise at 9am, lunch at noon.............you get the drift.

From the referendum result, it seems that leavers have more confidence in the innate ingenuity, inventiveness and industry of the British people which is where the confidence comes from that we will thrive and prosper after an initial and inevitable short term disruption.

Just get it done Boris. You'll romp the next election if you do and many of the spineless plotters in Parliament will have been dealt with as they deserve by the long suffering British electorate.

Polarisation,  Stereotyping.  energy and time is wasted on infighting and mocking the preconceived characteristics of one type of supposed person instead of empathy, co-operation diplomacy. 

Adopting one set of ideologies on a multitude of topics and then arguing with individuals who are diametrically opposed. 

No-one backs down, attitudes are reinforced, no-one reconsiders their point of view. Closed mindedness.

It's an echo chamber of ever increasing arguments.

I don't know what the answer is, but finding ways to divide people is an age old tactic used by the rulers to distract the masses from what's really going on, and it's happening here and now.

Throughout history, those who bring people together, who work for change whilst showing empathy are ultimately seen as the good people, the pioneers. Those who seek to divide usually get a bad press.

 

[Mounts Kipper]

55 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Can you read? This is after said agreements were published. The agreements were done and come into force as soon as we leave. 

 

First of all these agreements are in place for a no deal, that’s not happening, secondly the clue is in the sentence “likely mean additional costs” so not definitely, thirdly why are you trotting out this rubbish any way when it’s 6 months out of date, we have an agreement on the table, it seems folk like you who seem politically indoctrinated to a particular party to try to force your opinion even when it’s wrong. Folk without party political bias can see right through bullshit. You need to wise up. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[bolty58]

25 minutes ago, peelyfeet said:

Polarisation,  Stereotyping.  energy and time is wasted on infighting and mocking the preconceived characteristics of one type of supposed person instead of empathy, co-operation diplomacy. 

Adopting one set of ideologies on a multitude of topics and then arguing with individuals who are diametrically opposed. 

No-one backs down, attitudes are reinforced, no-one reconsiders their point of view. Closed mindedness.

It's an echo chamber of ever increasing arguments.

I don't know what the answer is, but finding ways to divide people is an age old tactic used by the rulers to distract the masses from what's really going on, and it's happening here and now.

Throughout history, those who bring people together, who work for change whilst showing empathy are ultimately seen as the good people, the pioneers. Those who seek to divide usually get a bad press.

 

 

Getting a  bit touchy, feely there Pete. Get a grip man. This is Wanderersways FFS.

[bolty58]

25 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

First of all these agreements are in place for a no deal, that’s not happening, secondly the clue is in the sentence “likely mean additional costs” so not definitely, thirdly why are you trotting out this rubbish any way when it’s 6 months out of date, we have an agreement in the table, it seems folk like you who seem politically indoctrinated to a particular party to try to force your opinion even when it’s wrong. Folk without party political bias can see right through bullshit. You need to wise up. 

"Can you read?" FFS mate, I don't know why you bother. Sounds like he's emphasising the 'thick' in 'owd, thick racists' to me.

[peelyfeet]

30 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

 

Getting a  bit touchy, feely there Pete. Get a grip man. This is Wanderersways FFS.

How do you know I'm a man. Showing your tendency to stereotype again 😏. It's just fucks me off that people who probably share common ground on many opinions, lifestyle, ethics, hobbies, sense of humour  are being coerced into taking sides, and petty arguing, and I'm bored to shit with Brexit and UK politics. I used to enjoy following it, thought I was learning from it, now it's like watching my gran and granddad arguing in 1970's about whether to watch the wrestling on World of Sport or the Boat Race on Grandstand. They're both shit. Can we not all go to the park instead?

Edited October 22, 2019 by peelyfeet
spelling

[bwfcfan5]

42 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

First of all these agreements are in place for a no deal, that’s not happening, secondly the clue is in the sentence “likely mean additional costs” so not definitely, thirdly why are you trotting out this rubbish any way when it’s 6 months out of date, we have an agreement on the table, it seems folk like you who seem politically indoctrinated to a particular party to try to force your opinion even when it’s wrong. Folk without party political bias can see right through bullshit. You need to wise up. 

The deals are in place for when we leave the EU and/or any negotiated transition period.

So end of 2020 these negotiated deals will come into effect. If we haven't negotiated an alternative arrangement with the EU - given we aren't likely to have a CU or Customs partnership then the shortfalls in these deals will be there come 2021. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with party politics - I'm completely in support of any party who points out the folly of Brexit but I'm most certainly not repeating any party line here  I can have my own thoughts. On the other hand lets examine the Brexit side -  to be clear the ERG and Boris all said this deal was a terrible one when May was PM. Jacob Rees Mogg even put a motion down to block any deal which put "customs controls down the Irish sea". Yet now this is what they try and sell us. Its purely a mechanism to get rid of May and let the ERG control the Tory party. It was a political game. And the huge contradiction is swallowed up by you and repeated ad nauseum. This deal is better than no deal. Sure. But its nothing like the one you predicted we'd get (time and time again) and it isn't because there isn't a good deal possible on the terms the Tory party set initially and especially now with the ERG pulling the strings. 

 

 

 

[Mounts Kipper]

2 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The deals are in place for when we leave the EU and/or any negotiated transition period.

So end of 2020 these negotiated deals will come into effect. If we haven't negotiated an alternative arrangement with the EU - given we aren't likely to have a CU or Customs partnership then the shortfalls in these deals will be there come 2021. 

This has absolutely nothing to do with party politics - I'm completely in support of any party who points out the folly of Brexit but I'm most certainly not repeating any party line here  I can have my own thoughts. On the other hand lets examine the Brexit side -  to be clear the ERG and Boris all said this deal was a terrible one when May was PM. Jacob Rees Mogg even put a motion down to block any deal which put "customs controls down the Irish sea". Yet now this is what they try and sell us. Its purely a mechanism to get rid of May and let the ERG control the Tory party. It was a political game. And the huge contradiction is swallowed up by you and repeated ad nauseum. This deal is better than no deal. Sure. But its nothing like the one you predicted we'd get (time and time again) and it isn't because there isn't a good deal possible on the terms the Tory party set initially and especially now with the ERG pulling the strings. 

 

 

 

I predicted a free trade deal, nothing more,  think that’s highly likely, the rest of your post is party political rant against the Tory party, ECG, and Johnson, remind me who your vote will be for at the next GE? .

I could counter your folly of Brexit with equally valid points of folly of remaining in the EU, the fact is we voted to leave, that’s was backed up by 85% of folk voting for a party who had leave in their manifesto at the last election and the fact that the party with the most seats at the next election will also be a leave party, there is no mandate to remain, the latest polls show people want this deal accepting so we can move on, let’s get the GE called so we can give the Tory party a strong hand in future negotiations.  Its time you accepted the result, and moved on with your life. 

[Guest]

Over the last 24 hours, I have spent time with 2 people from different Government departments involved in prepping for No Deal.

[bwfcfan5]

21 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I predicted a free trade deal, nothing more,  think that’s highly likely, the rest of your post is party political rant against the Tory party, ECG, and Johnson, remind me who your vote will be for at the next GE? .

I could counter your folly of Brexit with equally valid points of folly of remaining in the EU, the fact is we voted to leave, that’s was backed up by 85% of folk voting for a party who had leave in their manifesto at the last election and the fact that the party with the most seats at the next election will also be a leave party, there is no mandate to remain, the latest polls show people want this deal accepting so we can move on, let’s get the GE called so we can give the Tory party a strong hand in future negotiations.  Its time you accepted the result, and moved on with your life. 

I can point out the inaccuracies and nonsense regardless of whether I accepted the result. Boris has done u-turn after u-turn. That's a fact. Not an opinion. The only person determined to make this a party political issue is you. And the real motivation behind all of this is a hard right Tory government. That's what you want. That's what most of Brexit has been about. The language and gameplaying has been so abundantly obvious. 

You cannot point out the "folly of remaining in the EU" without resorting to opinion. I can point out why leaving is damaging economically - over the baseline position of remaining. 

Also - telling people they've got to "accept stuff" and not question, point out inconsistency and continue to hold their own view is completely undemocratic. And a very dangerous place to move towards. I've noted on here an increasing argument of "we're the majority so keep quiet and stop questioning us". That is full anti-democratic language. The point is that the country is divided. People will continue to hold their beliefs and express them regardless of what happens. That is what we're all about. You can't and won't ever silence that however hard you try. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by bwfcfan5

[Mounts Kipper]

2 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I can point out the inaccuracies and nonsense regardless of whether I accepted the result. Boris has done u-turn after u-turn. That's a fact. Not an opinion. The only person determined to make this a party political issue is you. And the real motivation behind all of this is a hard right Tory government. That's what you want. That's what most of Brexit has been about. The language and gameplaying has been so abundantly obvious. 

You cannot point out the "folly of remaining in the EU" without resorting to opinion. I can point out why leaving is damaging economically - over the baseline position of remaining. 

Also - telling people they've got to "accept stuff" and not question, point out inconsistency and continue to hold their own view is completely undemocratic. And a very dangerous place to move towards. I've noted on here an increasing argument of "we're the majority so keep quiet and stop questioning us". That is full anti-democratic language. The point is that the country is divided. People will continue to hold their beliefs and express them regardless of what happens. That is what we're all about. You can't and won't ever silence that however hard you try. 

I have voted Tory once in 37 years, Labour for 30 plus years, hardly hard right wing extremist. 

Any future forecasts either for remain or leaving are purely guess work, except in your world where only leaving is certain damaging, to have balance you must except remaining could also possibly be damaging, especially given the declining state of most of the EU member nations. 

Im all for democracy I want the referendum to be adhered to, failing that let’s have a GE where the winners get to chose what shape Brexit takes. 

Whereas your hero won’t put a no confidence vote and won’t now accept the original referendum result either, you seem to follow the lead of Corbyn and the Labour Party, it’s clear who is happy to let democracy take its course and who is not. 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[kent_white]

5 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Any future forecasts either for remain or leaving are purely guess work, except in your world where only leaving is certain damaging, to have balance you must except remaining could also possibly be damaging, especially given the declining state of most of the EU member nations. 

That's like saying you could just walk across the road without looking. Because predicting whether or not you'll be hit by a car is purely guess work.

Even most of the most ardent leavers are predicting that we'll be worse off financially post brexit. At least in the short to medium term.

Fair enough if you think that you're happy to be worse off because that means the will of the people will have been enacted. But on balance of probability - the the fannying around alone will leave us all a bit out of pocket.

 

[bwfcfan5]

7 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I have voted Tory once in 37 years, Labour for 30 plus years, hardly hard right wing extremist. 

Any future forecasts either for remain or leaving are purely guess work, except in your world where only leaving is certain damaging, to have balance you must except remaining could also possibly be damaging, especially given the declining state of most of the EU member nations. 

Im all for democracy I want the referendum to be adhered to, failing that let’s have a GE where the winners get to chose what shape Brexit takes. 

Whereas your hero won’t put a no confidence vote and won’t now accept the original referendum result either, you seem to follow the lead of Corbyn and the Labour Party, it’s clear who is happy to let democracy take its course and who is not. 

Why on earth would you think I’m following the lead of Corbyn? Do you even follow what is going on beyond the Daily Mail and Brexit central? 
 

Why are you repeating Tory propaganda at me? I couldn’t give a shite. My views are based on a lot of expert analysis and my own experiences. I don’t care about the political games going on. The Lib Dem’s have come closest to what I think but then they refuse to cooperate which irritates me. Take the politics out. What is best for the economy, trade, integrity of the union, and social cohesiveness. I know what I think and have reason and evidence to back it up. You keep coming to the same point which seems to be all about ‘politics’ and winning and losing. 

[DirtySanchez]

16 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I have voted Tory once in 37 years, Labour for 30 plus years, hardly hard right wing extremist. 

Any future forecasts either for remain or leaving are purely guess work, except in your world where only leaving is certain damaging, to have balance you must except remaining could also possibly be damaging, especially given the declining state of most of the EU member nations. 

Remind us where you're moving to

[bwfcfan5]

So government refuses to publish economic impact assessment. 

Say that if Parliament asks for more time than 3 days to put through a bill that would normally take at least a month - they will pull it and push for a GE. 

Sorry but the gamesplaying from government is a disgrace. Be honest and open and sell your deal. If it takes a few more weeks who cares? Parliament must be allowed to do its job.

If I was an MP I'd probably vote for it, but them trying to force it through would put me off. This is poor, poor government. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

So government refuses to publish economic impact assessment. 

Say that if Parliament asks for more time than 3 days to put through a bill that would normally take at least a month - they will pull it and push for a GE. 

Sorry but the gamesplaying from government is a disgrace. Be honest and open and sell your deal. If it takes a few more weeks who cares? Parliament must be allowed to do its job.

If I was an MP I'd probably vote for it, but them trying to force it through would put me off. This is poor, poor government. 

I think it’s “needs must”, mate

[Mounts Kipper]

20 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Remind us where you're moving to

I have a property in Spain, and one in England, will spend time in both, now remind me what’s what’s the point of your question? 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Mounts Kipper]

11 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

So government refuses to publish economic impact assessment. 

Say that if Parliament asks for more time than 3 days to put through a bill that would normally take at least a month - they will pull it and push for a GE. 

Sorry but the gamesplaying from government is a disgrace. Be honest and open and sell your deal. If it takes a few more weeks who cares? Parliament must be allowed to do its job.

If I was an MP I'd probably vote for it, but them trying to force it through would put me off. This is poor, poor government. 

I’m not fussed if it takes another week or 2 for parliament to study the legislation, but it’s funny how it takes a day or 2 when it suits the shithouses. 

[DirtySanchez]

8 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I have a property in Spain, and one in England, will spend time in both, now remind me what’s what’s the point of your question? 

If you cant join the dots 

You do seem tetchy about being asked questions to comments you've publicly made 

[Mounts Kipper]

6 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

If you cant join the dots 

You do seem tetchy about being asked questions to comments you've publicly made 

No I can’t join the dots, I’m just a thick old racist. Do me a favour and put me on ignore. There’s a good fella. 

[DirtySanchez]

1 minute ago, Mounts Kipper said:

No I can’t join the dots, I’m just a thick old racist. Do me a favour and put me on ignore. There’s a good fella. 

Surely you should put me on ignore??

When have I ever called you a thick old racist? 

[Salford Trotter]

32 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I’m not fussed if it takes another week or 2 for parliament to study the legislation, but it’s funny how it takes a day or 2 when it suits the shithouses. 

The Maastricht Treaty took 41 days for parliament to scrutinise

The original process of joining the EU took 39 days to scrutinise

The Lisbon Treaty took 25 days to scrutinise

So why on earth should the biggest treaty to impact the UK economy since the second world war only take 3 days?