Politics

[Mounts Kipper]

Just because they do something, it doesn't mean we have to you know. You're always gassing on about how bad the EU are, now you want to act like them

 

Unfortunately when your negotiating with unscrupulous people you have to play the same game.

[fatolive]

Just watching it kicking off in the channel.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45337091

[bolty58]

'Influential' doesn't necessarily equate with the positive...

 

 

 

The vast majority of people, myself included, just don't want to be on their collective arse again (a la 2009) - if we do land there we won't want to hear any bullshit about how it was somehow the fault of 'remain', however if it becomes apparent we're better off and have dodged a bullet I expect most of my ilk will gladly eat humble pie.

 

That's when Farage can be judged on what type of 'influential' he was.

 

 

Prepare to eat.

[bolty58]

So the EU are now offering a deal.

 

No doubt MK will not receive any acknowledgement from  the Remoan side that he was right about that all along.

 

I believe he will be proved right about the vast majority of his predictions regarding Brexit. A prosperous independent future awaits.

Edited August 30, 2018 by bolty58

[Guest]

Can’t find anything about this on the BBC

[Sweep]

So the EU are now offering a deal.

 

No doubt MK will not receive any acknowledgement from the Remoan side that he was right about that all along.

 

 

Let's see what the deal is before we get to excited shall we.

 

Also, I think Mounts is suggesting we reject it anyway, to try and teach the EU a lesson

 

Perhaps he's back to thinking that we hold all the cards

[Mounts Kipper]

Let's see what the deal is before we get to excited shall we.

 

Also, I think Mounts is suggesting we reject it anyway, to try and teach the EU a lesson

 

Perhaps he's back to thinking that we hold all the cards

I wasn’t the person who said we hold all the cards.

 

I consistently said there will be a deal, and it’s not about teaching the EU anything it’s about negotiating hard to achieve the outcome you require.

 

Anyhow don’t sound so bitter (your beginning to sound like a remoaner) about it all coming together pretty much as I predicted, there’s a few twists and turns yet and no doubt the remoaners will leap on every negative and knock back in another attempt to reverse the referendum, and I don’t doubt we will see labour showing their true colours in parliament blocking the deal, not for the good of the country but using it as an opportunity to force an election.

 

But ultimately we will get a reasonable deal and continue to trade, thrive and prosper while controlling our borders regaining our sovereignty while trading with the EU and without tariffs.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Mounts Kipper

[Mounts Kipper]

A further thought in these negotiations wouldn’t it be a good idea to break down the 40 billion we have promised to the EU and anything they don’t or can’t agree to then the 40 billion becomes 39 billion and so on.

 

Hit them in the pocket if they don’t or can’t agree to any of our demands.

[Ani]

I wasn’t the person who said we hold all the cards.

 

I consistently said there will be a deal, and it’s not about teaching the EU anything it’s about negotiating hard to achieve the outcome you require.

 

Anyhow don’t sound so bitter (your beginning to sound like a remoaner) about it all coming together pretty much as I predicted, there’s a few twists and turns yet and no doubt the remoaners will leap on every negative and knock back in another attempt to reverse the referendum, and I don’t doubt we will see labour show their true colours in parliament blocking the deal not for the good of the country but using it as an opportunity to force an election.

 

But ultimately we will get a reasonable deal and continue to trade, thrive and prosper while controlling our borders regaining our sovereignty while trading with the EU and without tariffs.

May came with a deal that the breixiteers said was not good enough.

 

May is ultimately in charge of negotiations.

 

No other deal been put forward by our side.

 

The EU are going to offer a great deal that is better than May suggested. A better deal than the person in charge of our negotiations has asked for ?

 

I hope you are right. I have said all along no deal is not an option for a number of reasons.

 

I have never been involved in a negotiation where one side has offered the other a better deal than they asked for.

[Ani]

A further thought in these negotiations wouldn’t it be a good idea to break down the 40 billion we have promised to the EU and anything they don’t or can’t agree to then the 40 billion becomes 39 billion and so on.

 

Hit them in the pocket if they don’t or can’t agree to any of our demands.

So the basis of your deal is to break earlier promises ?

[Mounts Kipper]

So the basis of your deal is to break earlier promises ?

No, this is only for things not already agreed.

[Ani]

No, this is only for things not already agreed.

You said the £40bn was promised.

[Mounts Kipper]

You said the £40bn was promised.

No it wasn’t. Nothing is agreed till everything is agreed. Keep up.????

[bolty58]

May came with a deal that the breixiteers said was not good enough.

 

May is ultimately in charge of negotiations.

 

No other deal been put forward by our side.

 

The EU are going to offer a great deal that is better than May suggested. A better deal than the person in charge of our negotiations has asked for ?

 

I hope you are right. I have said all along no deal is not an option for a number of reasons.

 

I have never been involved in a negotiation where one side has offered the other a better deal than they asked for.

 

My point was that the very fact that the EU is offering a deal of sorts augurs well for an eventual negotiated outcome which will fit the brief. Some of us always realised that it is not in the interests of the EU to cut the UK adrift for all sorts of reasons not least of which is the massive trade imbalance in their favour. For this reason alone, they will do everything in their power to avoid a so called 'hard Brexit'.

 

MK has been consistent with this (as has PH for that matter) and they will be proved right. All the scaremongering, Project Fear, and a few marigolds on here shitting their pants every time some so-called luminary shouted 'boo' will be proved to be as false and/or unnecessary as George Osborne's wildly pessimistic predictions designed only to attempt to hoodwink folk with anti EU sentiments into voting Remain.

 

It will be alright on the night. Nowt more sure and certain.

[Sweep]

I wasn’t the person who said we hold all the cards.

 

I consistently said there will be a deal, and it’s not about teaching the EU anything it’s about negotiating hard to achieve the outcome you require.

 

Anyhow don’t sound so bitter (your beginning to sound like a remoaner) about it all coming together pretty much as I predicted, there’s a few twists and turns yet and no doubt the remoaners will leap on every negative and knock back in another attempt to reverse the referendum, and I don’t doubt we will see labour showing their true colours in parliament blocking the deal, not for the good of the country but using it as an opportunity to force an election.

 

But ultimately we will get a reasonable deal and continue to trade, thrive and prosper while controlling our borders regaining our sovereignty while trading with the EU and without tariffs.

 

I was teasing with the "hold all the cards bit" I know that was Maggie Tate

 

I'm not bitter, I want the best deal that we can get - my concern all along is that the deal won't be as good as we currently have (i.e. we'll end up still paying in a large amount for access to the market, and we'll not have a say in any of their policies) - I hope that you're right with your predictions, but I'm not sure we'll get everything.

 

I certainly still think "freedom of movement" will exist, albeit it will be dressed up as "visa free travel for EU Passport holders" which will involve zero checks at our ports  -  and that's the issue which pretty much swung the vote

 

I agree we still trade "tariff free" with the EU - I'm sure we'll have to pay something for that privilege though

 

 

It'll be interesting to see what's offered by the EU - remember, we showed them the Chequers deal, and a lot of our MPs really didn't like that, it's not very likely that the EU will offer us something better than that is it, why would they? - so best case, they'll agree to the Chequers deal.........which some think our own Parliament won't ratify and pass - there might be the sticking point

[bolty58]

Sweep - I am with you in as much as the deal we have with the EU might well not be as good as we had. If fact, it has to be worse otherwise 20 odd others will be straight off along the same road.

 

What you fail to factor in however, is the massive amount of trading we will be able to do unfettered with the rest of the world which some of us (don't need to list them) believe will be far, far ahead of anything we could ever have achieved within this experiment which we all know will fail in the long run. It simply has to. 

 

The extra trade and prosperity from these deals will leave the loss of same with the EU completely in the shade and onwards and upwards we will go.

 

Extremely confident that 5 years after the actual divorce the consensus will be "What the fuck were we worried about?"  and after 10 years we will have better deals with anything for 2 to 5 countries which have also extricated themselves from this stifling bureaucracy which desires only power via political integration.

[Ani]

No it wasn’t. Nothing is agreed till everything is agreed. Keep up.????

So when you said it was promised you meant something else. I understand now makes some of your posts logical.

[Ani]

My point was that the very fact that the EU is offering a deal of sorts augurs well for an eventual negotiated outcome which will fit the brief. Some of us always realised that it is not in the interests of the EU to cut the UK adrift for all sorts of reasons not least of which is the massive trade imbalance in their favour. For this reason alone, they will do everything in their power to avoid a so called 'hard Brexit'.

 

MK has been consistent with this (as has PH for that matter) and they will be proved right. All the scaremongering, Project Fear, and a few marigolds on here shitting their pants every time some so-called luminary shouted 'boo' will be proved to be as false and/or unnecessary as George Osborne's wildly pessimistic predictions designed only to attempt to hoodwink folk with anti EU sentiments into voting Remain.

 

It will be alright on the night. Nowt more sure and certain.

I agree with your post !! (Maybe we both need to check it again)

 

The bit that you have ignored is my point that when May proposed a deal the pro Brexit elements in her own party dismissed it.

 

As far as we know though that deal is the basis of our negotiations which is why Boris resigned. So why do we think the deal proposed by the EU will be better or more acceptable than that proposed by May ?

 

We can not let the ability to do a deal be compromised by the extremes of either side. There is massive middle ground of people like me ( I have actually have a massive middle ground of my own) who do not want another vote, accept we are leaving, but do not think the hardest of hard brexits is the only option.

[Sweep]

 

 

What you fail to factor in however, is the massive amount of trading we will be able to do unfettered with the rest of the world

 

provided the agreement we sign actually does allow us to do that.........I wouldn't take that as a given

[Tonge moor green jacket]

provided the agreement we sign actually does allow us to do that.........I wouldn't take that as a given

Thing is though sweep, if we still have free movement, and can't sign proper agreements with others, then not only will it have been pointless, and risk creating a new party which we've mentioned before, but I also believe there's a chance that further down the line a more extreme pm would just rip the agreement up anyhow. A bit Trump-esque if you like.

 

Anyway, as ukip members are now joining the Tory party it seems a 'momentum' shift might be happening internally.

[Sweep]

Thing is though sweep, if we still have free movement, and can't sign proper agreements with others, then not only will it have been pointless, and risk creating a new party which we've mentioned before, but I also believe there's a chance that further down the line a more extreme pm would just rip the agreement up anyhow. A bit Trump-esque if you like.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with any of what you've posted there. Just because it doesn't make sense to us, it doesn't mean it won't happen (I'm not saying it will, as unlike others on here, I'm not pretending I know exactly what will happen)

[Tonge moor green jacket]

True enough.

 

Perhaps we need a wanderersways delegation to do the negotiating.

Fun to be had there.

[Mounts Kipper]

So when you said it was promised you meant something else. I understand now makes some of your posts logical.

 

We have promised the 40 billion based on our wish list and only when that is signed,sealed and agreed should we agree to pay that figure. 

 

What we have not agreed is the final deal and if that falls short of what we would wish for then its right and proper the divorce settlement is less than the headline figure. Whats so difficult to understand about that?           

[bwfcfan5]

We have promised the 40 billion based on our wish list and only when that is signed,sealed and agreed should we agree to pay that figure. 

 

What we have not agreed is the final deal and if that falls short of what we would wish for then its right and proper the divorce settlement is less than the headline figure. Whats so difficult to understand about that?           

 

That doesn't make sense though. The 40Bn was agreed as what we owe for existing committments. Only if those change would the figure change. And they are things we wish to continue (or are contracturally obliged to). So we cannot hold it over their heads in the way you describe. 

[Ani]

We have promised the 40 billion based on our wish list and only when that is signed,sealed and agreed should we agree to pay that figure.

 

What we have not agreed is the final deal and if that falls short of what we would wish for then its right and proper the divorce settlement is less than the headline figure. Whats so difficult to understand about that?

What is the wish list ?

 

We have not agreed what we want.

 

The money is to cover our legal commitments. What is difficult to understand is how you can not understand this. Rather than try and argue something why not just say ‘yeah that was badly worded of course we should honour our commitments l’