Farrelli Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Winchester White said: My Lib Dem vote went in last week because I am a lazy shite and use postal. I hope they start to gain ground again as they were unfairly treated for going into coalition with the Tories IMO. They did so in the national interest at a time of serious economic hardship. Something the other two parties seem incapable of doing, always their party interests first. Yes Lib Dems for me too. There are several pro-remain parties so the vote may get split but I expect they will do very well as in the locals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, Farrelli said: Yes Lib Dems for me too. There are several pro-remain parties so the vote may get split but I expect they will do very well as in the locals. Same. But vote is going to be very split for remainers. Lib Dems/Change/Green for out and out remain choices. Labour campaigning on basis of "stopping Brexit party winning so many MEPs" will also win votes from remainers that they wouldn't get in a GE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 26 minutes ago, Farrelli said: Yes Lib Dems for me too. There are several pro-remain parties so the vote may get split but I expect they will do very well as in the locals. Plenty of my friends who are remainers who can't not vote Tory for some reason. Lib Dems for me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 18 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Same. But vote is going to be very split for remainers. Lib Dems/Change/Green for out and out remain choices. Labour campaigning on basis of "stopping Brexit party winning so many MEPs" will also win votes from remainers that they wouldn't get in a GE. My take is that the rump of the Tory and Labour vote is pretty much remain leaning now. Those desperate for Farage have already jumped ship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: Plenty of my friends who are remainers who can't not vote Tory for some reason. Lib Dems for me too That makes no sense to me in this election. It really is a one issue mandate and the Tories have messed up for both camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Farrelli said: That makes no sense to me in this election. It really is a one issue mandate and the Tories have messed up for both camps. Believe me i have tried but these family and friends have voted nothing but Tory their whole adult lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: My take is that the rump of the Tory and Labour vote is pretty much remain leaning now. Those desperate for Farage have already jumped ship Oh absolutely. We can be fair and call Tory voters leavers and Labour voters remainers and I think that will be roughly correct - still skewing in leave's favour slightly but for safety probably best to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Oh absolutely. We can be fair and call Tory voters leavers and Labour voters remainers and I think that will be roughly correct - still skewing in leave's favour slightly but for safety probably best to. Cas called it out that 30% of Tories are remainers anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, boltondiver said: We have no evidence about the future So might could etc It seems as though this “cult”, of perhaps 40% of voters (surely therefore not a cult?) are willing to take the risk. In addition, they are also not ignoring the obvious, known, flaws of the EU. Precisely, the future isn’t certain, EU could shrink violently, they think all will be rosy for ever in their garden of Eden. I’m happy to go for it and always feel we can do better. The remainers live in fear and negativity and that’s the difference. And crucially the majority voted for that view point and that’s democracy. Edited May 23, 2019 by Mounts Kipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrelli Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: Precisely, the future isn’t certain, EU could shrink violently, they think all will be rosy for ever in their garden of Eden. I’m happy to go for it and always feel we can do better. The remainers live in fear and negativity and that’s the difference. And crucially the majority voted for that view point and that’s democracy. The immediate future is more certain if we remain (your gut feeling is not a great comfort). There is not a single person on here who has said the EU is perfect. However, we are much better working to improve it from within. No fear or negativity in that principle. Whether it's workers rights, environment or the economy, the UK has prospered as part of the EU for 40+ years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Cheese Posted May 23, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted May 23, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: The remainers live in fear and negativity and that’s the difference. Hahahahahaha! You are almost certainly the most deeply entrenched Brexit-cultist I've come across, and that's saying something. Edited May 23, 2019 by Cheese Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Farrelli said: The immediate future is more certain if we remain (your gut feeling is not a great comfort). There is not a single person on here who has said the EU is perfect. However, we are much better working to improve it from within. No fear or negativity in that principle. Whether it's workers rights, environment or the economy, the UK has prospered as part of the EU for 40+ years. The EU is not interested in reform. We are told time and again that reform from within is an option. It has been proven many times over the last 20 years that it is not. Didactic, hidebound single route to federalism. Or to put it another way - banging your head against a brick wall. Everything must bend to "the project". We need to get out. Other European countries need to get out. Any organisation that is so impervious to the external environment is doomed to fail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, paulhanley said: The EU is not interested in reform. We are told time and again that reform from within is an option. It has been proven many times over the last 20 years that it is not. Didactic, hidebound single route to federalism. Or to put it another way - banging your head against a brick wall. Everything must bend to "the project". We need to get out. Other European countries need to get out. Any organisation that is so impervious to the external environment is doomed to fail The EU is a collection of nation states. It reflects the collective views of those nation states.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said: The EU is a collection of nation states. It reflects the collective views of those nation states.... Ah. So they all have the same view at all times do they? From Greece to Portugal and from Italy to Britain. I must have missed that. How silly of me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, paulhanley said: Ah. So they all have the same view at all times do they? From Greece to Portugal and from Italy to Britain. I must have missed that. How silly of me. Nobody said they did. Its majority decision or unanimous decision depending upon the policy issue.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said: Nobody said they did. Its majority decision or unanimous decision depending upon the policy issue.... So what if it's not in your national interest but it gets imposed on majority decision? Is that not just a tad inconvenient for the nation state in question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted May 23, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted May 23, 2019 We asked for reform (well Cameron was supposed to have tried). Wasn't forthcoming. Perhaps they should look back. A degree of flexibility and the referendum would probably have happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, paulhanley said: So what if it's not in your national interest but it gets imposed on majority decision? Is that not just a tad inconvenient for the nation state in question? The biggest stuff is where we have the veto....but generally.... What if something is not in the North Wests favour but imposed by Westminster? What if something is not in Bolton's favour but imposed by Burnham? What if something is not in Harwood's favour but imposed by Bolton MBC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 Just now, bwfcfan5 said: The biggest stuff is where we have the veto....but generally.... What if something is not in the North Wests favour but imposed by Westminster? What if something is not in Bolton's favour but imposed by Burnham? What if something is not in Harwood's favour but imposed by Bolton MBC? The nation state is the upper limit of democracy in my view. The nation state has for centuries been the likeliest political unit to have demos. We can argue whether Kearsley should be governed from Bolton, whether there is any need for a "Manchester Mayor" or whether there should be greater devolution in England if you like. But we're essentially arguing about the correct political units around which to organise ourselves. Such units need to exist otherwise its anarchy. I think that the clear common sense building block is the nation state and that there is no need for an unweildy, monolithic super-structure above that. Especially a didactic, hidebound super-structure on a journey to federalism and within which key decisions are taken by people who are not elected - as opposed to the trading bloc that we joined on a false prospectus in the 1970s. It is the EUs behaviour and failure to reform that is one of the reasons that people hold the entirely legitimate view that we should leave. British people are not alone in this view as you will discover on Sunday evening. Instead of looking down its nose at those who question its legitimacy ,the EU could do with having a long hard look at itself and its behaviour over many years. It won't though. It knows best. Just like you and your remain pals know best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamiwhite Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 Disgusting bastard who did this to an old man over Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 minutes ago, miamiwhite said: Disgusting bastard who did this to an old man over Brexit. No doubt the people who did it think they are tolerant and he isn't. Hypocrisy as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Farrelli said: The immediate future is more certain if we remain (your gut feeling is not a great comfort). There is not a single person on here who has said the EU is perfect. However, we are much better working to improve it from within. No fear or negativity in that principle. Whether it's workers rights, environment or the economy, the UK has prospered as part of the EU for 40+ years. You can’t change it from within, we’ve tried, they don’t want to change it. Move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamiwhite Posted May 23, 2019 Author Share Posted May 23, 2019 7 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said: EU steel industries seem to be doing alright....ours is the outlier....I wonder why? Did you actually see the report on Sky News ? It said for all its worth etc and increased production in countries like Germany, they’re unable to compete with the Chinese. Take your glasses off fella, and look at the full picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted May 23, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted May 23, 2019 From that thread about the old fella. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Cheese said: Hahahahahaha! You are almost certainly the most deeply entrenched Brexit-cultist I've come across, and that's saying something. You are in the cult, consumed and blinded by it, the EU isn’t the centre of the universe. Hopefully one day you’ll see sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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