@gonzo made a comment on other thread about us now and then. So compare Papa Johns team v yesterday, I know we might have injuries now but the comparison is scary. Fair to say we were better at loans then 

Keeper then Trafford now Baxter massive drop in quality and attitude. 

Centre halves then - prime santos ( think he did his calf climbing them steps ) Toal pre injury (just !) and Jones only survivor 

Now - Johnston, Firino and Jones - all 3 are imo lesser players than we had then. Jones is half the player he was

wing backs then Bradley and Declan John. Now JDC and Murphy. Bradley impossible act to follow, Murphy is just struggling so DJ was a better player imo

Midfield then - Sheehan Morley and Dempsey. Now Matete, Sharples Ahmed and Legohead. Clearly hit by injuries now as 3 were missing yesterday 

upfront Collins and Big Dave - Then Kachunga and Dion. Collins might be the only one I would take from yesterday although Kachunga had a great game at Wembley. No disrespect to big Dave but he is still a kid . 
 

IMO we are weaker in 10 out of 11 positions in 18 months. Hampered by injury and the team then was boosted by 2 exceptional loan signings but the overall drop off is shocking. 

23 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Same here

@jules_darbysaid yesterday that he feels more pissed off with the group now than after the play off final.

I tend to agree. 

The way they've wilted over the past few games is diabolical and muchworse than a big capitulation.

But like you I'm confident the manager and new recruitment can sort the mess out.

I just hope him, the new staff and the owners/investors are all pulling in the right direction.

We can't afford many more seasons down here, over time the player stock is falling.

 

 

We’ve also reached the peak for ticket sales at this level (season tickets slightly  down on last). They will continue to reduce for every further season we’re in this league now

9 hours ago, jayjayoghani said:

For the people arguing set fire to the club, just before Rioch took over we finished 13th in Div 3.

He didn't sign that many players to get promotion. From memory, Branagan, McGinlay, Lee. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Roger_Dubuis said:

Rioch came to a squad that had Andy Walker, Alan Stubbs and Jason McAteer in it.Schumacher is discovering Evatt hasn't left a 30 goal a season striker and two PL standard youngsters

I thought Rioch signed McAteer, he certainly gave him his debut

14 hours ago, Farnywhite said:

The Huddersfield game the players weren’t given much freedom but the opposite Darby went with a game plan of sitting back  10 men behind the ball and hit them on the brake and it worked

. It’s something that we should  look at for next season with additional pace and a target man and get away from the idea that we have to have 80 percent of the possession away from home 

It was refreshing going into an away game with an "underdog" mentality.  Literally the only game in about 5 years when we've done that!  (not sure about Brum away under IE as I didn't see any of it, but I believe it was more of a "we can't win this" rather than a "let's fight as underdogs").  OK maybe Wycombe we did too - or were we just incapable of passing a ball in their half at Wycombe and so ended up defending manfully?

In hindsight Darby couldn't have picked a better first game - but at the time it looked like a nightmare game for him - Huddersfield bombing along, unbeaten in months, Charles was going to tear us apart, us on our knees.  But the backs to the wall, let's just try to keep a clean sheet attitude, coupled with Huddersfield being very poor as we now know, it all fell into place for JD (that's not to underplay how good he was for us - legend).

If we could just go to Barnsley, Rotherham, Reading, Stockport with that attitude - like most of them do to us - we'll have a far better chance IMO and the likes of Forrester, Forino and Toal are more than capable of keeping us solid, with some help from a midfield not hell bent on out-footballing the opposition.   

50 minutes ago, Zico said:

 

I thought Rioch signed McAteer, he certainly gave him his debut

Neal signed him in his final season as Bolton manager.He mustn't have considered him ready for first team football but he was a Neal signing

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

We’ve also reached the peak for ticket sales at this level (season tickets slightly  down on last). They will continue to reduce for every further season we’re in this league now

They timed ST sales to perfection this time . 

5 hours ago, Roger_Dubuis said:

Rioch came to a squad that had Andy Walker, Alan Stubbs and Jason McAteer in it.Schumacher is discovering Evatt hasn't left a 30 goal a season striker and two PL standard youngsters

I think that stands out about this squad.  Considering we have so many more "first teamers" than was the norm in the Neal/Rioch days, its amazing we've managed to avoid having any players that stand out as being better than L1.  We did have a few arguably - Dapo, Lee plus the loan players, but not now.

Walker, Stubbs, McAteer, Lee, Branagan should never have been in L1 in their 20s; add Burke, Green, Seagraves, Brown and Kelly that all proved themselves in the 2nd tier.  Different times I know, but a class above what IE left us with.

5 hours ago, desperado said:

Despite the many truths in this thread.

What a depressing title! 

It’s not going to do me much good seeing that everyday up till August 2nd. 😂

I’m going with the mindset that this decline, with a few key signings (and a manager who can be flexible, adaptable, bringing the best out of the squad he has), can be addressed, arrested, turned around, to get us back in promotion contention.

 

Agreed.  And it could have been worse...just think if IE had done just a bit better - we might well have won those last 2 home games v Cambridge & Charlton and had false hopes that all was well (or rather Sharon would have). 

He could have easily limped along to the end of the season.  Then Schumacher takes over in May/June and it takes him till Oct/Nov to realise what he knows now, about the squad's shortcomings.  At least we are starting next season with some sort of clean slate, even if we can't move as many players on as SS would like to all at once. 

And I'm treating the season being over by 20th April as another bonus - far better than a month or so later, not just for transfer planning but hopefully less injuries/fatigue and more time to build up enthusiasm of players and fans.

36 minutes ago, burnden said:

They timed ST sales to perfection this time . 

Definitely.  Selling STs a few months before the previous season ends seems like a no brainer, and would have increased crowds in previous years/decades if adopted sooner.  Fans only need to get the enthusiasm to buy once between Feb and August and its done, a couple of good wins or signings might be all it takes for some to be swayed.

That doesn't make them turn up for night matches though!  Or dead rubbers in April and May.

20 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Agreed.  And it could have been worse...just think if IE had done just a bit better - we might well have won those last 2 home games v Cambridge & Charlton and had false hopes that all was well (or rather Sharon would have). 

He could have easily limped along to the end of the season.  Then Schumacher takes over in May/June and it takes him till Oct/Nov to realise what he knows now, about the squad's shortcomings.  At least we are starting next season with some sort of clean slate, even if we can't move as many players on as SS would like to all at once. 

And I'm treating the season being over by 20th April as another bonus - far better than a month or so later, not just for transfer planning but hopefully less injuries/fatigue and more time to build up enthusiasm of players and fans.

Yeh. You know me, I try to see the positives.

So I’m fully on board with what you point out there Johnny; he’s seen the frailties now rather than further down the road, start planning now in advance, new season with a clean slate and new signings.

I hold my hand up and say I got it wrong with Evatt, although I knew it was game over after the Huddersfield defeat.

However, It doesn’t alter my opinion that the incumbent manager is best placed to make informed decisions, will have information at hand that we aren’t privy to, so let them get on with it, without dramatically criticising decisions we know little about. 

I’m still not one of those who think there was a steady decline under Evatt.  I think Evatt’s fall from grace after Oxford was pretty dramatic and unexpected; weight loss, god bothering, yoga, missing from the club, personal decisions affecting football decisions, a raft of poor signings, paying out big money on average players, blaming the players (we hadn’t seen it so dramatic before in his tenure)

And hopefully we won’t again.

So let’s leave SS and his team to it, trust that they are best placed and well positioned to make the best decisions, and have a bit of faith and hope that come 2nd August we are well set to start our way back to the championship.

Edited April 23, 20251 yr by desperado

2 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

That doesn't make them turn up for night matches though!  Or dead rubbers in April and May.

I don't think they care if we turn up or not once they have had the coin tbh.  Customers not fans.

On 22/04/2025 at 15:40, Casino said:

 

fwiw, i didn't have another play off season in me, so im pretty happy its over

Me too.  It feels like I've been given an extra month of summer not having to think about us in the play offs in May.  And being able to enjoy the other other play off games as a neutral instead of obsessing over our highs and very lows.

I'll be ready for them again next year though, I think the whole club and fans needed this "break".

4 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

It was refreshing going into an away game with an "underdog" mentality.  Literally the only game in about 5 years when we've done that!  (not sure about Brum away under IE as I didn't see any of it, but I believe it was more of a "we can't win this" rather than a "let's fight as underdogs").  OK maybe Wycombe we did too - or were we just incapable of passing a ball in their half at Wycombe and so ended up defending manfully?

In hindsight Darby couldn't have picked a better first game - but at the time it looked like a nightmare game for him - Huddersfield bombing along, unbeaten in months, Charles was going to tear us apart, us on our knees.  But the backs to the wall, let's just try to keep a clean sheet attitude, coupled with Huddersfield being very poor as we now know, it all fell into place for JD (that's not to underplay how good he was for us - legend).

If we could just go to Barnsley, Rotherham, Reading, Stockport with that attitude - like most of them do to us - we'll have a far better chance IMO and the likes of Forrester, Forino and Toal are more than capable of keeping us solid, with some help from a midfield not hell bent on out-footballing the opposition.   

The Huddersfield manager said after the game there ‘I had them watched midweek and they did not defend the box like they did today.’ 
 

Think this goes back to mentality, when the shit hit the fan for Evatt the players showed they could perform, but gradually that has fallen away. Which reflects badly on their attitude, I think SS has been shocked by players who can clearly play not putting the hard yards in.  The good news is that maybe getting in a couple of older heads with better attitude and a more professional approach it is not unreasonable to think we could see a decent improvement in performance. 
 

Keep saying it but the absolute priority in the summer is a new captain, I like Legohead but he is not captain material. The lack of leadership is so clear and needs addressing. 
 

7 minutes ago, Ani said:

The Huddersfield manager said after the game there ‘I had them watched midweek and they did not defend the box like they did today.’ 
 

Think this goes back to mentality, when the shit hit the fan for Evatt the players showed they could perform, but gradually that has fallen away. Which reflects badly on their attitude, I think SS has been shocked by players who can clearly play not putting the hard yards in.  The good news is that maybe getting in a couple of older heads with better attitude and a more professional approach it is not unreasonable to think we could see a decent improvement in performance. 
 

Keep saying it but the absolute priority in the summer is a new captain, I like Legohead but he is not captain material. The lack of leadership is so clear and needs addressing. 
 

Spot on.

That quote from the Hudds manager - we could have come back with "we've watched us under IE for 4 years and we've never defended the box like that".   Its a struggle to think of one other game when we've been in a defensive mindset for the majority of the game, and won by keeping a clean sheet.  Wrexham and Stockport have probably done that more in 2 months than we ever did under IE (or SS).  Darby did it though, credit to him.

7 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

It was refreshing going into an away game with an "underdog" mentality.  Literally the only game in about 5 years when we've done that!  (not sure about Brum away under IE as I didn't see any of it, but I believe it was more of a "we can't win this" rather than a "let's fight as underdogs").  OK maybe Wycombe we did too - or were we just incapable of passing a ball in their half at Wycombe and so ended up defending manfully?

In hindsight Darby couldn't have picked a better first game - but at the time it looked like a nightmare game for him - Huddersfield bombing along, unbeaten in months, Charles was going to tear us apart, us on our knees.  But the backs to the wall, let's just try to keep a clean sheet attitude, coupled with Huddersfield being very poor as we now know, it all fell into place for JD (that's not to underplay how good he was for us - legend).

If we could just go to Barnsley, Rotherham, Reading, Stockport with that attitude - like most of them do to us - we'll have a far better chance IMO and the likes of Forrester, Forino and Toal are more than capable of keeping us solid, with some help from a midfield not hell bent on out-footballing the opposition.   

I said a few weeks ago if we were capable of grinding draws out the season would of been different it’s win or loose and the piss poor goal difference and the amount of hammerings this season shows a lack of resilience . Look at Wycombe don’t play expansive football keep it tight and get the win . People were knocking Wrexham and Parkinson after we played them wouldn’t want to watch that every week attitude but it’s better than Stockport etc putting 5 past you 

Edited April 23, 20251 yr by Farnywhite

I like watching a team tackle, block and care about a clean sheet every bit as much as clapping the 4th or 5th goal against some relegation fodder down to 10 men. It's not about being the Harlem Globetrotters of L1 it's about winning, or if that can't happen, not losing.

The fact that Kieron Lee could only make the bench that day at Wembley says everything. Could you imagine someone of that Quality in our team now. Yet we have legohead capitano and first name on the team sheet. 
 

it’s going to be along re build. I hope us Bolton fans give him the time he needs. We won’t though it’s just the way we are. 

Crikey there’s some whopping posts on here.

Are they all saying we’re shit and I knew this would happen?

They usually are, long posts.

I dont think we're shit, i think we're broken.

1 hour ago, FrancisFogarty said:

Crikey there’s some whopping posts on here.

Are they all saying we’re shit and I knew this would happen?

They usually are, long posts.

I think most of the posts are comparing the squad now versus 2 years ago to debate whether we've actually improved given the amount we've spent.

Quite an interesting topic if you want to add any thoughts 

28 minutes ago, Stig said:

I think most of the posts are comparing the squad now versus 2 years ago to debate whether we've actually improved given the amount we've spent.

Quite an interesting topic if you want to add any thoughts 

I’m not falling out with anyone. Everything , that’s everything is opinions and there’s always going to be at least two.

My thoughts are that this is all water under the bridge. We haven’t got the squad we had two years ago. We’ve got this one, and due to injuries this will not stay constant, so there’s nowt to compare.

Fuck me, I’ve done a fairly long post now.

 

Didn't the Decline start about 15 years ago?

On 23/04/2025 at 02:11, jayjayoghani said:

For the people arguing set fire to the club, just before Rioch took over we finished 13th in Div 3.

He didn't sign that many players to get promotion. From memory, Branagan, McGinlay, Lee. 

 

 

Few teams have problems that can't be solved by signing great players.

If SS brings in three who go on to become club legends we'll be laughing.

1 hour ago, Whitestar said:

Didn't the Decline start about 15 years ago?

Yes it did but, by the same definition, we've been on an ascent for the last 5 years. Whilst this year has gone backwards a little, the 4 before (statistically) were each better than the one before it. I'll take one backstep out of every 5 years

10 minutes ago, thebells said:

Yes it did but, by the same definition, we've been on an ascent for the last 5 years. Whilst this year has gone backwards a little, the 4 before (statistically) were each better than the one before it. I'll take one backstep out of every 5 years

For me what matters is that we are still in the same league we were in 4 years ago and going into our 5th season there , Progress so far 0.

2 hours ago, Whitestar said:

Didn't the Decline start about 15 years ago?

Not in my book.

We hit rock bottom when we had a team of kids.  We'd been on an upward curve up until the last couple of months of last season.