https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/wanderers/

33 minutes ago, Sweep said:

And this is the biggest point, if we do get promoted, attendances won't increase massively, and neither will the TV revenue......well, not sufficiently enough to cover the wage bill. We would probably start to lose even more money. Although as stated, you have that chance of getting to the promised land.........where, you then have the ability to lose even more astronomical amounts of money 😁

English football, in the main, is fucked from top to bottom, why anybody would want to buy a football club is beyond me. There are very few clubs able to operate within their means, and I'm not sure how that will ever change.

How much chance do you think you have of getting to Prem even with the new 8th position play off? Without billionaire backers the gulf is starting to look as big from Championship in both directions

54 minutes ago, green genie said:

How much chance do you think you have of getting to Prem even with the new 8th position play off? Without billionaire backers the gulf is starting to look as big from Championship in both directions

Very little indeed, but a damn site more of a chance than we have languishing in this division 😉

Interestingly, the step up in revenue from the league is actually bigger than I had assumed, you go from £2m in L1 to about £11m in the Championship.

On top of that you’d increase advertising revenue and matchday revenue from bigger away followings etc. and so I reckon you could safely call that an extra £3m based on our current levels.

That’s £12m of additional revenue and basically bridges the current loss (although remember the quoted wage bill reflects last season, so it’s likely slightly different).

We would increase the wage bill because you’d have to to be competitive. In the short term you’d likely see a much better financial profile because you wouldn’t go and spunk the £12m on additional player wages (our player wage bill is about £12m so it would be doubling it). The problem comes a couple of years later when the fans are bored and want to push for the prem, revenue isn’t increasing but every year you push more and more to improve the squad and grow a bigger and bigger loss.

It has made me slightly more positive that at least in the short term a promotion would actually be massively beneficial financially - we just need to fucking get there now!

5 hours ago, gonzo said:

It's a complete money pit mate and we are just no different from anyone else. 

Fleetwood Town lose over £5m a season. 

The problems arise when someone decides they want to cover those losses any more. Like Eddie and Ken did.

We have no inclination that FV and the others are going to suddenly stop covering the losses. 

We've seen this summer we've been more shrewd in the transfer market to help shrink the outgoings.

Smatterings on loans and players nobody else wants plus making profits on Collins and GT. That will help this year's accounts and looks a more balanced model than throwing millions at wankers like Randall.

The bollocks Zog posts above about following the Brigton model is absolutely for the birds.

We are beg stealing and borrowing what we can to get out of this division.

The academy is lightyears away from producing any tangible assets.

The longer we stay in this division the more the playing sqaud will decrease in ability and value. This is where the recruitment team need to earn their coin.

They've not been a million miles off it this season. 

 

Great post 👏

Close the thread 

3 hours ago, L/H White said:

can you wait until after the marathon?

Very good 😆

21 hours ago, Zog1 said:

It doesn't take an accountant to know £13 million a year losses is unsustainable long term.

It is so long as Swiss investors put money in.

At some point they will stop, and we will have to become more sustainable, unless someone else joins in.

FV have been very good at getting people on board and the club is in a far better position now.

That extra investment has allowed us a big playing squad, and some relatively expensive signings.

If we had to cut our cloth, then the squad size would be reduced, and more youth used to fill the places.

Strangely, that is what SS spoke about upon his arrival, and particularly at the end of last season. 

Given that our big squad is possibly bloated and not as effective as we hoped it would be, it wouldn't bother me particularly if more were jettisoned and youth brought in.

 

Maybe the board should just let zog1 run the club from top to bottom, chairman/finance/manager, we'd be in the prem in 2 seasons

 

he can even write the theme tune and sing the theme tune

3 minutes ago, TroySwoosh said:

Maybe the board should just let zog1 run the club from top to bottom, chairman/finance/manager, we'd be in the prem in 2 seasons

 

he can even write the theme tune and sing the theme tune

Can he play centre-half?

1 minute ago, jmjhb said:

Can he play centre-half?

yep, and goalie and striker and false 10 and sub and ref and tea lady and flag waver

9 hours ago, gonzo said:

It's a complete money pit mate and we are just no different from anyone else. 

Fleetwood Town lose over £5m a season. 

The problems arise when someone decides they want to cover those losses any more. Like Eddie and Ken did.

We have no inclination that FV and the others are going to suddenly stop covering the losses. 

We've seen this summer we've been more shrewd in the transfer market to help shrink the outgoings.

Smatterings on loans and players nobody else wants plus making profits on Collins and GT. That will help this year's accounts and looks a more balanced model than throwing millions at wankers like Randall.

The bollocks Zog posts above about following the Brigton model is absolutely for the birds.

We are beg stealing and borrowing what we can to get out of this division.

The academy is lightyears away from producing any tangible assets.

The longer we stay in this division the more the playing sqaud will decrease in ability and value. This is where the recruitment team need to earn their coin.

They've not been a million miles off it this season. 

 

 

Our turnover is £20m. Lincoln's is £8m.

I've no doubt we'll have spent more than them again this season. Even our beg, stealing and borrowing has involved half a dozen on Championship wages in on loan.

It's not the stuff of plucky underdogs. Still time, but to this point we have been a million miles off autos.

Someone is fucking up somewhere.

21 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

Our turnover is £20m. Lincoln's is £8m.

I've no doubt we'll have spent more than them again this season. Even our beg, stealing and borrowing has involved half a dozen on Championship wages in on loan.

It's not the stuff of plucky underdogs. Still time, but to this point we have been a million miles off autos.

Someone is fucking up somewhere.

Of course it's been a cluster fuck. Not getting up the Oxford season was a total fuckin disaster. And letting Evatt and Markham loose with the checkbook the following summer and Jan an even bigger one.

This season should've been a mega push for autos but for countless reasons it's just never quite got going.  

But that's just football innit. Blackpool spent more money on Transfers in the summer than us. Our sqaud should've been pushing better than it has been of course.

On the business side we aren't the only club losing millions hand over fist, that's the point. The melodramatics by some is embarrassing.

Stockport lost over £9m the same year.

Chelsea lost about £200m

Debt can be offset witn other businesses.....

Not exactly sure why but hearing about football teams losing loads of money has always stressed me out, even more so after what happened to us a few years ago.

I'd give anything for some kind of salary cap on overall wages spend to prevent these kinds of losses, with it being increased as a percentage of your incoming gate receipts. That way there is still a hierachy same as now with bigger clubs having a slight advantage but it gets the smaller clubs a bit closer. And a rugby league style incentive of any youth players coming through your system you get some of their wages at a discount towards the cap.

It's impossible though as it would have to be a worldwide thing or else all talent would just move abroad.

 

Edited April 1Apr 1 by Eagle85

Keiran Maguire's posts are always enlightening on this topic, I think one of them recently indicated only 4 clubs out of the 92 were operating at a profit. Can't remember them all but Brighton were one. 

Average losses in our league last year were double figure millions, in L2 around those Fleetwood marks, in Championship more like £20m.

Us going up and being sustainable in Championship would be a massive ask, built on some shrewder recruitment  than we've arguably managed to date under either regime and some very hard bargaining on sales (which we've shown signs of this season)

4 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

Keiran Maguire's posts are always enlightening on this topic, I think one of them recently indicated only 4 clubs out of the 92 were operating at a profit. Can't remember them all but Brighton were one. 

Average losses in our league last year were double figure millions, in L2 around those Fleetwood marks, in Championship more like £20m.

Us going up and being sustainable in Championship would be a massive ask, built on some shrewder recruitment  than we've arguably managed to date under either regime and some very hard bargaining on sales (which we've shown signs of this season)

You got it there; shrewder recruitment. Why do we need a head of recruitment plus Harkin for starters. Plus the last five windows have been atrocious 

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

Of course it's been a cluster fuck. Not getting up the Oxford season was a total fuckin disaster. And letting Evatt and Markham loose with the checkbook the following summer and Jan an even bigger one.

This season should've been a mega push for autos but for countless reasons it's just never quite got going.  

But that's just football innit. Blackpool spent more money on Transfers in the summer than us. Our sqaud should've been pushing better than it has been of course.

On the business side we aren't the only club losing millions hand over fist, that's the point. The melodramatics by some is embarrassing.

Stockport lost over £9m the same year.

Chelsea lost about £200m

Debt can be offset witn other businesses.....

Summer not so much but by Christmas we'd all pretty much decided Evatt's time was up. Letting him stay so late into January and make the signings and sales in that window was massive mistake from Sharon and the board. Leaving us relying on 2 unready youngsters up front in the tail end of the season.

I think the loan market is causing huge issues. 

We've had TSL, Burstow, Forss, IC, ACD, Kenny, Apter, CB-Taylor...

Even if we're paying half the wages that's a hell of a lot..

Added to Schon, CMG, Randall still on the books and possibly paying some of their wages to get rid..

That and forcing players out of contract, again costing money..

We really need to smarten up 

1 hour ago, RUREADY2ROLL said:

You got it there; shrewder recruitment. Why do we need a head of recruitment plus Harkin for starters. Plus the last five windows have been atrocious 

We were, apparently, clear about what we wanted to be as a club (albeit, at the time, with the chancer Phoenix involved) then forgot about it and indulged Evatt's desire to act like a lower league City, buying up either the best from rivals in the Div or ones those rivals coveted. 

We're showing signs with the talk of rebuilding the academy status of returning to the original model, and there's been more of an element of book balancing in the player dealings, spiced with a greater (but reasonable) emphasis on loans. 

It's a tricky business for any ownership group but I'm not sure ours have found it easy as they might have thought to stick to a model they believed was right to go with. Pressure of the need to succeed and be upwardly mobile must weigh heavy for them at times though.  

Edited April 1Apr 1 by ianofcleveleys

40 minutes ago, only1swanny said:

I think the loan market is causing huge issues. 

We've had TSL, Burstow, Forss, IC, ACD, Kenny, Apter, CB-Taylor...

Even if we're paying half the wages that's a hell of a lot..

Added to Schon, CMG, Randall still on the books and possibly paying some of their wages to get rid..

That and forcing players out of contract, again costing money..

We really need to smarten up 

So we have issues whether we buy players, loan players in, loan players out or get rid of them? Might as well give up then.

Edited April 1Apr 1 by jmjhb

17 hours ago, Eddie said:

Interestingly, the step up in revenue from the league is actually bigger than I had assumed, you go from £2m in L1 to about £11m in the Championship.

On top of that you’d increase advertising revenue and matchday revenue from bigger away followings etc. and so I reckon you could safely call that an extra £3m based on our current levels.

That’s £12m of additional revenue and basically bridges the current loss (although remember the quoted wage bill reflects last season, so it’s likely slightly different).

We would increase the wage bill because you’d have to to be competitive. In the short term you’d likely see a much better financial profile because you wouldn’t go and spunk the £12m on additional player wages (our player wage bill is about £12m so it would be doubling it). The problem comes a couple of years later when the fans are bored and want to push for the prem, revenue isn’t increasing but every year you push more and more to improve the squad and grow a bigger and bigger loss.

It has made me slightly more positive that at least in the short term a promotion would actually be massively beneficial financially - we just need to fucking get there now!

I was about to comment on your previous post so glad I read on!

Last season the new TV deal really prioritised the championship over L1&2 so the boost in income from going up is significant.

And where Zog is right is that we already have fixed costs akin to a bottom half championship team. So promotion would reduce losses considerably, unless we then wanted to speculate in the hope of pushing for the Prem as Gonzo says and increase the player and transfer budget considerably (would have to increase slightly to keep us in the champ).

Either way, getting out of this league is crucial

8 hours ago, jmjhb said:

So we have issues whether we buy players, loan players in, loan players out or get rid of them? Might as well give up then.

I'd rather we loan a few we can give back if they're shite rather pay millions for wankers like Randall and be chucking 4 year contracts about om players with fuck all resale value.

The summer window was far from atrocious. We had to overhaul the entire squad, bed them in, and make some form of assault on the autos with a brand new set of lads and way of playing.

There's only Forss and probably Apter that have been major letdowns. TSL maybe. We've not even started on the back line yet.

 

I've no problem with us using the loan market

Obviously it won't always work out, but it gives us an opportunity to sign quality we otherwise couldn't afford

9 hours ago, jmjhb said:

So we have issues whether we buy players, loan players in, loan players out or get rid of them? Might as well give up then.

Time will tell,

If we get promoted, it's a success, if we don't, then it's not. 

We might have some cracking deals where we're paying very little if any of those wages in return for experience.

FWIW we've loaned out Inwood, Hutchinson and Warren who I can see playing a big part next year should be not gain promotion.  

We've gotta be smarter than the previous knee jerk reaction from team Evatt, where we ended up with Schon, McAtee, Randall, Lolos none of which have had a huge impact. Yet to see from McAtee and hope he comes good for us. 

1 hour ago, Stig said:

I was about to comment on your previous post so glad I read on!

Last season the new TV deal really prioritised the championship over L1&2 so the boost in income from going up is significant.

And where Zog is right is that we already have fixed costs akin to a bottom half championship team. So promotion would reduce losses considerably, unless we then wanted to speculate in the hope of pushing for the Prem as Gonzo says and increase the player and transfer budget considerably (would have to increase slightly to keep us in the champ).

Either way, getting out of this league is crucial

Yeah I was glad I actually had a look into it because I was completely wrong in how material the jump was.

I suppose when you’re coming down from the prem, the difference between the Champ and L1 seems pretty immaterial when compared to Prem to Champ - but then when you’re looking upwards and are starting from a £20m revenue base, it’s massive (sounds like the difference might have changed last year from your post so maybe I wasn’t always wrong).

6 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Yeah I was glad I actually had a look into it because I was completely wrong in how material the jump was.

I suppose when you’re coming down from the prem, the difference between the Champ and L1 seems pretty immaterial when compared to Prem to Champ - but then when you’re looking upwards and are starting from a £20m revenue base, it’s massive (sounds like the difference might have changed last year from your post so maybe I wasn’t always wrong).

Yeah the deal that started at the beginning of last season, with 5 championship matches and 5 league 1&2 (combined) matches on TV every weekend, increased TV revenue by 50%, but it skewed it much more towards the championship with something like a £7m difference in base TV level alone, and more per match shown, from memory. Can't find the exact amounts but this talks about the deal as a whole and added financial incentive to beat Oxford....

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/23566308.bolton-wanderers-ceo-neil-hart-fear-factor-tv-deal/