Plane Down

[Dimron]

1 hour ago, Winchester White said:

Nothing can be ruled out I suppose, they did use a hell of a lot of runway for a 787.

As they calculate the thrust needed for take off on load (pax, baggage, cargo and fuel), altitude, wind, temperature etc so if it was unexpectedly heavy that could we an issue.

Thing is they should have realised something like weight was an issue very quickly, well before rotation. Plus if there was enough thrust to take off there should have been enough to continue to climb, albeit slowly.

Your comment reminds me of some of the PIA 747 videos of very heavy take offs using nearly all the runway at Manchester which isn't short!

I put my overweight hypothesis to my Missus earlier today and she replied "so why didn't they abort at v1?" ... she knows her stuff #, we have some interesting conversations in Dimron Towers.

[Winchester White]

2 minutes ago, Dimron said:

I put my overweight hypothesis to my Missus earlier today and she replied "so why didn't they abort at v1?" ... she knows her stuff #, we have some interesting conversations in Dimron Towers.

I am no aviation expert but if there was an issue on the runway, as in slow to reach takeoff (or as your missus says didn't reach v1) then why did they not abort?

It could point to pilot failure or even worse systemic failure of protocol because normal rules are regularly bent to avoid delays or cancellations.

I fear this could be a number of issues all of which land squarely at Air India.

[Dimron]

2 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

I am no aviation expert but if there was an issue on the runway, as in slow to reach takeoff (or as your missus says didn't reach v1) then why did they not abort?

It could point to pilot failure or even worse systemic failure of protocol because normal rules are regularly bent to avoid delays or cancellations.

I fear this could be a number of issues all of which land squarely at Air India.

When flying these big beasts you have certain speed milestones which as you have correctly pointed out, are calculated before take off. These become the decision points in whether to continue (point of no return etc.).

I instruct on "likkle planes" and we always warn our students against stretching the envelopes... engineers always build in safety margins and it is very easy to eat into these grey areas... I have done this and it has got me out of trouble, but what you must guard against is the "reward cookie" where subliminally you are rewarded for getting away with it and it becomes the norm... then you go a bit further and so on until that big red X flashes and the Game is up.

I still wonder whether the Pilot Non Flying moved the flap lever when "gear up " was called and with the aeroplane only just flying... it has happened before (Staines 1972) and will probably happen again unfortunately, there are many instances of pilots attempting to aviate with incorrrect flap settings.

The report of flickering lights reported by the survivor is a concern if accurate, I read somewhere the Ram Air Turbine was reported as lowered (unsubstantiated)which suggests an electrical problem, the RAT supplies a secondary electrical supply if the engine generators are out of action.

A pal flies 78's for Virgin so I'll ask him when I see him 

 

[Winchester White]

11 minutes ago, Dimron said:

When flying these big beasts you have certain speed milestones which as you have correctly pointed out, are calculated before take off. These become the decision points in whether to continue (point of no return etc.).

I instruct on "likkle planes" and we always warn our students against stretching the envelopes... engineers always build in safety margins and it is very easy to eat into these grey areas... I have done this and it has got me out of trouble, but what you must guard against is the "reward cookie" where subliminally you are rewarded for getting away with it and it becomes the norm... then you go a bit further and so on until that big red X flashes and the Game is up.

I still wonder whether the Pilot Non Flying moved the flap lever when "gear up " was called and with the aeroplane only just flying... it has happened before (Staines 1972) and will probably happen again unfortunately, there are many instances of pilots attempting to aviate with incorrrect flap settings.

The report of flickering lights reported by the survivor is a concern if accurate, I read somewhere the Ram Air Turbine was reported as lowered (unsubstantiated)which suggests an electrical problem, the RAT supplies a secondary electrical supply if the engine generators are out of action.

A pal flies 78's for Virgin so I'll ask him when I see him 

 

Would be interesting to hear what your mate thinks.

I believe retracting flaps or leading edges too early these days is almost impossible reading some stuff today but with everything on the internet you have to take it all with a good dose of scepticism.

 

[Dimron]

Just now, Winchester White said:

Would be interesting to hear what your mate thinks.

I believe retracting flaps or leading edges too early these days is almost impossible reading some stuff today but with everything on the internet you have to take it all with a good dose of scepticism.

 

From what I know, it is almost impossible to apply take off power without a take off flap setting being set without all the bells and whistles firing off (not "THE" correct setting but "A" setting)... although I recall a pilot managed to do it at Madrid a few years ago with the usual consequences.

As I recall in the Boeing NG Sim (another pal is a sim instructor and lets me play when he's bored), it is possible to retract flaps at any time climbing in the 737 but you can't pull them all the way in in one go as there is a safety gate on the lever to restrict inadvertent retraction.

[Winchester White]

Have a look at Mentor Pilot, gives some possible explanations. Seems on Boeing you actually can retract front edges or rear flaps at the wrong time (like take off) but obviously this isn't them saying it is the cause.

I am starting to think this will be an accumulation of mistakes, maintenance and training that ended up in disaster.

[Dimron]

10 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

Have a look at Mentor Pilot, gives some possible explanations. Seems on Boeing you actually can retract front edges or rear flaps at the wrong time (like take off) but obviously this isn't them saying it is the cause.

I am starting to think this will be an accumulation of mistakes, maintenance and training that ended up in disaster.

All accidents are a result of a sequence of circumstances each on it's own only meriting an "incident"... the maxim is always "break the chain" when you see it happening.

Just revisited the Spanair 2008 accident... looks very similar

[Spider]

2 hours ago, Dimron said:

I put my overweight hypothesis to my Missus earlier today and she replied "so why didn't they abort at v1?" ... she knows her stuff #, we have some interesting conversations in Dimron Towers.

You can’t abort at v1

 

[Traf]

The pilot is dead, he'll get the blame.

[Big E]

11 hours ago, Traf said:

The pilot is dead, he'll get the blame.

Remember the wways dinner with the air traffic controller. He said you just need to be able to back yourself in his job because if you fuck up it’s generally only you at the inquest 

[Dimron]

1 hour ago, Big E said:

Remember the wways dinner with the air traffic controller. He said you just need to be able to back yourself in his job because if you fuck up it’s generally only you at the inquest 

Probably the most accurate statement on this thread.

There was a huge miscarriage of justice in Zagreb (1976?) When an atco went to prison... I think it was Granada who did a documentary on it

[royal white]

Not quite plane down but definitely a case of “how the fuck did anyone survive that”

 

 

[kent_white]

2 minutes ago, royal white said:

Not quite plane down but definitely a case of “how the fuck did anyone survive that”

 

 

Jesus - the injuries on those 13 must be catastrophic surely? 

Mind you - a bloke walked out of a plane crash last week 😁

[Cheese]

7 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Jesus - the injuries on those 13 must be catastrophic surely? 

Mind you - a bloke walked out of a plane crash last week 😁

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c17w04wxwpxo

"According to the pilot, who is one of the survivors, a fire started inside the basket, so he started to lower the balloon, and when the balloon was very close to the ground he told people to jump," officer Tiago Luiz Lemos, from the Praia Grande police station, told reporters at the scene.

"They started to jump, but some people did not manage to. The flames started to grow and because of the weight, the balloon began to rise again."

[kent_white]

1 minute ago, Cheese said:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c17w04wxwpxo

"According to the pilot, who is one of the survivors, a fire started inside the basket, so he started to lower the balloon, and when the balloon was very close to the ground he told people to jump," officer Tiago Luiz Lemos, from the Praia Grande police station, told reporters at the scene.

"They started to jump, but some people did not manage to. The flames started to grow and because of the weight, the balloon began to rise again."

I'm amazed looking at the footage as it looked like it was plummeting at great speed to me! 

[Cheese]

6 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I'm amazed looking at the footage as it looked like it was plummeting at great speed to me! 

That footage is after people had already jumped out when it was closer to the ground. Because of the reduced weight from people bailing out, the balloon started rising again at a rapid rate.

Edited June 22, 2025 by Cheese

[Zico]

19 minutes ago, royal white said:

Not quite plane down but definitely a case of “how the fuck did anyone survive that”

 

 

Odd reply 

 

[kent_white]

2 minutes ago, Cheese said:

That footage is after people had already jumped out when it was lower. Because of the reduced weight, the balloon started rising again at a rapid rate.

Ah fair enough. So there was nobody in it in the actual footage that's doing the rounds?

[Cheese]

14 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Ah fair enough. So there was nobody in it in the actual footage that's doing the rounds?

Yes there are people in it. The ones who didn't jump out when it was close to the ground.

[kent_white]

5 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Yes there are people in it. The ones who didn't jump out when it was close to the ground.

Christ - so it went down and then the people who didn't jump went back up again and the plummeted?

That's horrific 

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Christ - so it went down and then the people who didn't jump went back up again and the plummeted?

That's horrific 

Yep.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

https://news.sky.com/story/flights-suspended-after-man-is-sucked-into-plane-engine-on-runway-13394036

Kinell, a grizzly way to top yourself.

[kent_white]

4 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

https://news.sky.com/story/flights-suspended-after-man-is-sucked-into-plane-engine-on-runway-13394036

Kinell, a grizzly way to top yourself.

Jarrod Boeing

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Jack Mincelwood

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Splatt Jansen