(That long since we've had any, couldn't find the thread)

Alan Nixon: "Top Liverpool starlet Cameron Branagan will Ben allowed out on loan in Jan.

Bolton lead the race for the 20 year old midfielder"

Edited December 11, 20169 yr by Ratwhite

11 hours ago, Sluffy said:

This is a lot easier to understand...

 

What on earth is going on with his accent? 😁

22 minutes ago, desperado said:

I quite like stuff like this.

I like reading about the varied different stats that are about to - loads these days.

Like you say, you’ve not get to get too literal about one aspect, and hung up about anything that’s not too favourable as there’s context and loads of variables.

Stats and data seem to do Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton pretty well.

Their whole recruitment is based around that kind of micro analysis.

1 minute ago, gonzo said:

Stats and data seem to do Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton pretty well.

Their whole recruitment is based around that kind of micro analysis.

Absolutely.

My nieces fella is the data analyst at Burnley. Fascinating chatting to him.

But other than a general interest, they are next to useless for fans without understanding the context and the mass of stuff that sits behind/alongside it.

Obviously I've never seen Watson play, we'll find out when we see him in competitive action.

Can I add a bit of caution without being accused of saying he's shit before he's even started training? 😀 I wonder if he's being built up that there's an unrealistic expectation for what he'll produce next season?

The positives are - box to box, "an upgrade on Dempsey", arrives late in the box to score goals (his words), highly rated in Scotland with a lot of potential, bargain price, could potentially be sold at a profit in future, looks like he's got a great attitude and touch wood isn't injury prone.  As @Ratwhite said, low risk, high reward.

We virtually signed him in January, and it was obvious we were signing him this summer whatever the play offs outcome, so this isn't necessarily one of those championship-ready signings that all promoted sides need; his goalscoring isn't an upgrade on any current midfielders except EE (his last goal was in October and he played 40 games). He gets stuck in but isn't what you'd call a physical player, looks similar in size to Sheehan and not quite as strong as Dempsey, who was outstanding in the air for his size; not sure Watson adds to our set piece takers? (we've lost Dempsey and Morley deliveries and presumably Christie won't be playing, so there's a vacancy that definitely needs filling, to avoid Sheehan being back on them 😀).

I think we should be cautious about expecting him to come into the championship and be a regular starter, its a massive step up from Kilmarnock, playing against 28 year old proven Championship and ex-Prem players rather than in L1 which is roughly the same level as lower Scots Prem.  Let him develop and learn from a core of proven players around him hopefully, like our other unproven players need to, and we'll see the benefit over a period of time.  

25 minutes ago, desperado said:

I quite like stuff like this.

I like reading about the varied different stats that are about to - loads these days.

Like you say, you’ve not get to get too literal about one aspect, and hung up about anything that’s not too favourable as there’s context and loads of variables.

As someone who worked in data and intelligence, I also like the stats. However, this comment also comes with caveats around statistical confidence and unconsidered variables.

To expand, with regard to confidence, statistics are often presented on small numbers of events. For example, early last season Burstow hit the ground running and had an excellent goals to minutes ratio. However, he then went a prolonged barren run. Neither were representative of his ability.

On the second point - unconsidered variables - this can be significant in football. Looking at the passing statistics for Watson, there is no consideration of the quality of the opposition. Furthermore, playing with someone who is good at finding space and making runs, can make a significant difference to the passer’s numbers. Lesser opponents and good runners versus strong opponents and a lack of runners, etc.

1 minute ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Obviously I've never seen Watson play, we'll find out when we see him in competitive action.

Can I add a bit of caution without being accused of saying he's shit before he's even started training? 😀 I wonder if he's being built up that there's an unrealistic expectation for what he'll produce next season?

The positives are - box to box, "an upgrade on Dempsey", arrives late in the box to score goals (his words), highly rated in Scotland with a lot of potential, bargain price, could potentially be sold at a profit in future, looks like he's got a great attitude and touch wood isn't injury prone.  As @Ratwhite said, low risk, high reward.

We virtually signed him in January, and it was obvious we were signing him this summer whatever the play offs outcome, so this isn't necessarily one of those championship-ready signings that all promoted sides need; his goalscoring isn't an upgrade on any current midfielders except EE (his last goal was in October and he played 40 games). He gets stuck in but isn't what you'd call a physical player, looks similar in size to Sheehan and not quite as strong as Dempsey, who was outstanding in the air for his size; not sure Watson adds to our set piece takers? (we've lost Dempsey and Morley deliveries and presumably Christie won't be playing, so there's a vacancy that definitely needs filling, to avoid Sheehan being back on them 😀).

I think we should be cautious about expecting him to come into the championship and be a regular starter, its a massive step up from Kilmarnock, playing against 28 year old proven Championship and ex-Prem players rather than in L1 which is roughly the same level as lower Scots Prem.  Let him develop and learn from a core of proven players around him hopefully, like our other unproven players need to, and we'll see the benefit over a period of time.  

Good post.

Ive had similar thoughts these last 48 hours.

This is a massive step up for him.

Interesting also to note that for the last 8 games he was on the bench. No idea why, injury, fitness, other options, planning without him. Saw some fan comment he wasn’t that bothered losing a sub player!

I’m happy to be pragmatic about, not only this signing, but all signings I’ve never heard off and am just seeing for the first time on a video clip!

Like you, I worry that some of our fans build our new signings up so much, then at the first sign of not living up to these expectations, their opinions flip and they get criticised!

Give him time to grow and judge him over a period of time - Look at Dalby this year!

2 minutes ago, desperado said:

Good post.

Ive had similar thoughts these last 48 hours.

This is a massive step up for him.

Interesting also to note that for the last 8 games he was on the bench. No idea why, injury, fitness, other options, planning without him. Saw some fan comment he wasn’t that bothered losing a sub player!

I’m happy to be pragmatic about, not only this signing, but all signings I’ve never heard off and am just seeing for the first time on a video clip!

Like you, I worry that some of our fans build our new signings up so much, then at the first sign of not living up to these expectations, their opinions flip and they get criticised!

Give him time to grow and judge him over a period of time - Look at Dalby this year!

Totally agree, until we’ve actually seen him in action we can’t know if he’s up to starting or not. Since our interest began when in L1 he may not actually be ready for first team football and may need 6 months or so out on loan to see how well he stands up in English football. I was excited when I first saw Charlie Warren last year but he clearly wasn’t believed to be ready for L1 football and needed a spell on loan and it’s possible young Watson may be the same and not fully ready for Championship level. It will be interesting to see what happens with both him and Charlie this season.

12 minutes ago, desperado said:

Good post.

Ive had similar thoughts these last 48 hours.

This is a massive step up for him.

Interesting also to note that for the last 8 games he was on the bench. No idea why, injury, fitness, other options, planning without him. Saw some fan comment he wasn’t that bothered losing a sub player!

I’m happy to be pragmatic about, not only this signing, but all signings I’ve never heard off and am just seeing for the first time on a video clip!

Like you, I worry that some of our fans build our new signings up so much, then at the first sign of not living up to these expectations, their opinions flip and they get criticised!

Give him time to grow and judge him over a period of time - Look at Dalby this year!

Yes, glad its not just me.  This is a long term signing, this isn't us bringing in Simons and EE for L1 last year (they were replacing Sheehan remember!).  This is a young player who might turn out to be half decent, I would be amazed if he starts any championship games before our (inevitable) injuries are a factor a couple of months into the season or whatever.  He isn't replacing Sheehan, assuming we don't sell him, and its hard to see them regularly in the same team given their lack of physicality.  

And the other huge factor for new unproven signings is the lack of cup games.  The 1st round league cup won't be the usual experimental line up (Inwood, Lawrence. Warren and Mendes-Gomez started v Sheff Wed last year), it will be a full dress rehearsal for the first league game a week later.

I could be wrong but my expectation is that Watson will be biding his time, in an ideal world we'd have signed him for L1 in Jan and he'd be integrated by now.

 

41 minutes ago, desperado said:

Good post.

Ive had similar thoughts these last 48 hours.

This is a massive step up for him.

Interesting also to note that for the last 8 games he was on the bench. No idea why, injury, fitness, other options, planning without him. Saw some fan comment he wasn’t that bothered losing a sub player!

I’m happy to be pragmatic about, not only this signing, but all signings I’ve never heard off and am just seeing for the first time on a video clip!

Like you, I worry that some of our fans build our new signings up so much, then at the first sign of not living up to these expectations, their opinions flip and they get criticised!

Give him time to grow and judge him over a period of time - Look at Dalby this year!

It is a massive step up for everyone in our squad. Yes i noticed that he was mainly benched Feb onwards

He had obviously one eye on signing for us. And like it or not just like half a dozen players in SS first three months i think he was on the beach as far back  as the first of Feb when Kilmarnock delayed his move to us. Despite that he was Kilmarnock Fans player of the year last season, coming on the back of being Scottish Premier young player of the season the year before. On youtube he is compared  more than once to Mctominey and John Mcginn if he is half as good as them two we have got a good un

Edited June 2Jun 2 by masi 51

1 hour ago, gonzo said:

Stats and data seem to do Brentford, Bournemouth and Brighton pretty well.

Their whole recruitment is based around that kind of micro analysis.

if you every look behind the 

Dugout 

There are about 5/6 chaps 

on Laptops doing all that every game 

23 minutes ago, little whitt said:

if you every look behind the 

Dugout 

There are about 5/6 chaps 

on Laptops doing all that every game 

All watching porn, mate.

37 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Yes, glad its not just me.  This is a long term signing, this isn't us bringing in Simons and EE for L1 last year (they were replacing Sheehan remember!).  This is a young player who might turn out to be half decent, I would be amazed if he starts any championship games before our (inevitable) injuries are a factor a couple of months into the season or whatever.  He isn't replacing Sheehan, assuming we don't sell him, and its hard to see them regularly in the same team given their lack of physicality.  

And the other huge factor for new unproven signings is the lack of cup games.  The 1st round league cup won't be the usual experimental line up (Inwood, Lawrence. Warren and Mendes-Gomez started v Sheff Wed last year), it will be a full dress rehearsal for the first league game a week later.

I could be wrong but my expectation is that Watson will be biding his time, in an ideal world we'd have signed him for L1 in Jan and he'd be integrated by now.

 

Who or what type of player are you signing??

Preston are signing Alfie Devine for 6m

They are talking 12m for Tommy Conway, And both Wrexham and Millwall seem happy to pay 8m for Sunderland reserve keeper. Dave Watson and Luca Stephenson are the market we are shopping and both will either start or be on the bench first game of next season

8 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

Who or what type of player are you signing??

Preston are signing Alfie Devine for 6m

They are talking 12m for Tommy Conway, And both Wrexham and Millwall seem happy to pay 8m for Sunderland reserve keeper. Dave Watson and Luca Stephenson are the market we are shopping and both will either start or be on the bench first game of next season

I’m sure Johnny will be on later to respond.

But my interpretation of his post isn’t one where he’s saying we shouldn’t be buying these players. 

I think I he’d probably agree with you, as I do, that the last thing we want to be doing is gambling on £2million plus players, unless it’s someone like Duberry who we know would be worth it. 

These signings are great, young, potential, well-sought after. I think it’s just a call of caution to not get too excited. 

In terms of other types of players, I’ve just listened to Fergal’s interview, maybe the prem/champ established/experienced players come in the loan market - he talked very favourably about this.

The combination of these young lads with potential, along with some experienced loanees might be a good combination for L1. 

 

38 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

It is a massive step up for everyone in our squad. Yes i noticed that he was mainly benched Feb onwards

He had obviously one eye on signing for us. And like it or not just like half a dozen players in SS first three months i think he was on the beach as far back  as the first of Feb when Kilmarnock delayed his move to us. Despite that he was Kilmarnock Fans player of the year last season, coming on the back of being Scottish Premier young player of the season the year before. On youtube he is compared  more than once to Mctominey and John Mcginn if he is half as good as them two we have got a good un

Those player of the year awards are impressive, he's clearly got something.

I'm a fan of McTominay (how did Man U just let him go?), he's very much a goalscoring midfielder who scores big goals (double figures in each of the last 3 seasons that he's played at least 30 games, plus regular goals for Scotland) and he's tall and strong, good in the air.  I'm just not seeing that in the Watson highlight reels, and clearly we haven't signed him for his goals any more than we did EE or Simons (unlike Rodriguez for eg). 

He may have the industry of McGinnn, but its hard to compare with such a left footed player!  And JM is also elevated by his goals (23 in last 3 years) as well as set piece delivery and assists.  I'd be interested to see with my own eyes what those comparisons are based on.  The truth is he'll be his own man with his own style and I'm looking forward to seeing what he brings to our team.

31 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

Who or what type of player are you signing??

Preston are signing Alfie Devine for 6m

They are talking 12m for Tommy Conway, And both Wrexham and Millwall seem happy to pay 8m for Sunderland reserve keeper. Dave Watson and Luca Stephenson are the market we are shopping and both will either start or be on the bench first game of next season

I know we are unlikely to sign anyone I've heard of, other than those we've already loaned, so I can't say.

But if I was pushed, and to sign alongside the Watsons who are young and have potential, I'd want 2 or 3 who've been there and done it, either in the champ, top end of L1, or now at the end of their Prem career.  That category would included the likes of Conor Coady (2 of out of 3 promoted teams signed him last year 😀), Seamus Coleman as others mentioned, James Milner but obviously now retired.  And no not all 3, just the one, there will be other examples who have played championship rather than Prem. 

Players still at their peak - I'd love us to try to get Cameron Branagan but I don't think his age fits the profile of player we would pay money for, Dean Windass or Keilor Dunn if they can't get games at Wrexham.  Or Lisbie from Peterboro, but these are just names and I don't have a clue on wages, contract situations or transfer fees.

I'll let SS and Fergal get on with it but my post was to suggest that I'd be surprised if a young player from Kilmarnock was going to be starting many in the first half of the season ahead of the players already here, and any experienced signings.

1 hour ago, desperado said:

Good post.

Ive had similar thoughts these last 48 hours.

This is a massive step up for him.

Interesting also to note that for the last 8 games he was on the bench. No idea why, injury, fitness, other options, planning without him. Saw some fan comment he wasn’t that bothered losing a sub player!

I’m happy to be pragmatic about, not only this signing, but all signings I’ve never heard off and am just seeing for the first time on a video clip!

Like you, I worry that some of our fans build our new signings up so much, then at the first sign of not living up to these expectations, their opinions flip and they get criticised!

Give him time to grow and judge him over a period of time - Look at Dalby this year!

Is it such a big step up?

Celtic and foreign clubs reportedly interested too.

We'll be reet.

31 minutes ago, desperado said:

I’m sure Johnny will be on later to respond.

But my interpretation of his post isn’t one where he’s saying we shouldn’t be buying these players. 

I think I he’d probably agree with you, as I do, that the last thing we want to be doing is gambling on £2million plus players, unless it’s someone like Duberry who we know would be worth it. 

These signings are great, young, potential, well-sought after. I think it’s just a call of caution to not get too excited. 

In terms of other types of players, I’ve just listened to Fergal’s interview, maybe the prem/champ established/experienced players come in the loan market - he talked very favourably about this.

The combination of these young lads with potential, along with some experienced loanees might be a good combination for L1. 

I  never took it that Johnny was saying do not sign this sort of player

All our signings this summer will be a gamble. They will mainly come from Scotland, Europe and league one. Some will pay off some wont, bit like last season.

Not sure how we can sign a Experienced loan player they are few and far between and are usually not getting into their parent team  Blackett-Taylor and Apter are the only two i can think of. The rest of our loans are usually players no one has heard of

 

15 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Is it such a big step up?

Celtic and foreign clubs reportedly interested too.

We'll be reet.

Well I suppose the truth is we don’t know.

2 players came from SPL last year. Both didn’t settle straight away and injuries & personal problems played a part too, so it’s a questionable comparison.

Dalby came good in the best possible way! Whereas Taylor may not pull on a white shirt again!

Then you’ve got folk like Arfield who just didn’t cut it in L1, never mind the championship, yet was banging in goals and well liked when he went back to the SPL.

So IMO I do think the Championship is a big step up from SPL, but it’s not an exact science and I hope he’s one of those who transitions really well.

Edited June 2Jun 2 by desperado

9 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

 

By experience I’m not just meaning age, experience at a big club/high level.

So along with Apter and CBT, you can add Duberry, Kenny & Burstow. All loans (bar Apter) that had a positive impact at L1.

If Fergal can pull off Championship equivalents, then they could have a big part to play. 

2 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

I know we are unlikely to sign anyone I've heard of, other than those we've already loaned, so I can't say.

But if I was pushed, and to sign alongside the Watsons who are young and have potential, I'd want 2 or 3 who've been there and done it, either in the champ, top end of L1, or now at the end of their Prem career.  That category would included the likes of Conor Coady (2 of out of 3 promoted teams signed him last year 😀), Seamus Coleman as others mentioned, James Milner but obviously now retired.  And no not all 3, just the one, there will be other examples who have played championship rather than Prem. 

Players still at their peak - I'd love us to try to get Cameron Branagan but I don't think his age fits the profile of player we would pay money for, Dean Windass or Keilor Dunn if they can't get games at Wrexham.  Or Lisbie from Peterboro, but these are just names and I don't have a clue on wages, contract situations or transfer fees.

I'll let SS and Fergal get on with it but my post was to suggest that I'd be surprised if a young player from Kilmarnock was going to be starting many in the first half of the season ahead of the players already here, and any experienced signings.

Good post and reply we certainly need a few older heads in the squad though i would hope any we bring in will push to play week in week out

 

11 minutes ago, desperado said:

Well I suppose the truth is we don’t know.

2 players came from SPL last year. Both didn’t settle straight away and injuries & personal problems played a part too, so it’s a questionable comparison.

Dalby came good in the best possible way! Whereas Taylor may not pull on a white shirt again!

Then you’ve got folk like Arfield who just didn’t cut it in L1, never mind the championship, yet was banging in goals and well liked when he went back to the SPL.

So IMO I do think the Championship is a big step up from SPL, but it’s not an exact science and I hope he’s one of those who transitions really well.

And Kenny???

1 minute ago, masi 51 said:

And Kenny???

Of course .. Yes!

The fentanyl is still in full effect! (Just had a knee op 😉) 

Took a couple of games, but after that he was flying! Would love to get him back 

1 hour ago, Traf said:

All watching porn, mate.

Yeah think ss has mentioned a few times they get in at halftime and assess the data.

1 hour ago, desperado said:

I’m sure Johnny will be on later to respond.

But my interpretation of his post isn’t one where he’s saying we shouldn’t be buying these players. 

I think I he’d probably agree with you, as I do, that the last thing we want to be doing is gambling on £2million plus players, unless it’s someone like Duberry who we know would be worth it. 

These signings are great, young, potential, well-sought after. I think it’s just a call of caution to not get too excited. 

In terms of other types of players, I’ve just listened to Fergal’s interview, maybe the prem/champ established/experienced players come in the loan market - he talked very favourably about this.

The combination of these young lads with potential, along with some experienced loanees might be a good combination for L1. 

 

I prefer it to be a good combination in the championship!😜

46 minutes ago, desperado said:

Well I suppose the truth is we don’t know.

2 players came from SPL last year. Both didn’t settle straight away and injuries & personal problems played a part too, so it’s a questionable comparison.

Dalby came good in the best possible way! Whereas Taylor may not pull on a white shirt again!

Then you’ve got folk like Arfield who just didn’t cut it in L1, never mind the championship, yet was banging in goals and well liked when he went back to the SPL.

So IMO I do think the Championship is a big step up from SPL, but it’s not an exact science and I hope he’s one of those who transitions really well.

To be fair on Arfield, he didn't go back to the SPL, it was the league below, and he basically didn't play when they got back in the Prem.  I also think he got a bad press from us and just got in a rut in an under performing team - same as Taylor.  They proved themselves as decent players before they came here, and literally half a dozen games for us and they're treated as being Greenidge and Maskell category - they aren't/weren't that bad.  If Dalby had also been restricted to half a dozen appearances he wouldn't be far above Dan in our affections!

I agree with you that championship is miles above anywhere below top 3 of Scottish.  Every team in the bottom half of the championship would finish top 6 IMO.  I don't think L1 teams would finish top 6 but I think we'd avoid relegation no problem.  Just opinions of course.

I'd be amazed if many bottom half Scots Prem players could cut it in the championship, another comparison of players that have done L1 and Scots Prem in recent times are Baccus who we wanted, Dan of course, Doidge (Champ for us but not good enough for that level), Vela, Taylor, Dalby.  L1 standard, got loads of games in the Scots Prem, not really championship standard (that's not meant to be a dig at Dalby, just talking about his career path to date).