Politics

[kent_white]

11 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Precisely, the government of the day have a call to make on how our money is best used so that we get best value for money, any government who ran on a manifesto to sell off the NHS would never get elected.

The cry from labour that the Tories are going to sell off the NHS is a cynical and desperate attempt from a morally and politically bankrupt Labour Party to turn around the inevitable disastrous GE result

the Labour Party has been ruined by Corbyn, McDonnell and momentum and labour voters all over the midlands and North are about to deliver their verdict. 

You're conflating two issues.

I think we're relying too heavily on the private sector in the NHS - and from where I'm sitting - that trend seems to be increasing. 

Just FYI most of the decisions around spending has now been devolved to clinical commissioning groups. The Government decide on what the central pot will be. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

59 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Yes - because the same things always happen. It starts off well, with great energy and gusto. Then over time, the service gets poorer and poorer as the inevitable need to earn more and more money for the contract gets demanded. Then the NHS have to start picking up the slack which costs even more money, time and stress for the staff and patients. And eventually it ends up coming back under the auspices of the NHS after years of fannying about.

In Bolton we outsourced patient transport to Arriva. It was an absolute disaster. What used to be a fairly straight forward service turned into a shambles. They were failing year on year. 

Eventually Arriva were fined for cooking the books and charging the NHS for services they hadn't provided.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/arriva-ambulance-bonus-payback-mps-10377387

It's not just in Bolton either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-34474299

Not good that story.

An interesting point about services dropping off. Presumably these are monitored for performance and they're sacked off if they don't perform adequately?

Much as you'd hope an underperforming individual or group would be sacked if they worked 'in house'.

There will always be this argument and hopefully, if it's shown that certain functions aren't being performed well enough privately, then they'd come back. 

Still need to have the right people doing and managing the functions, whatever the set-up.

[Mounts Kipper]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Please don't judge everyone by your own standards. I've been discussing these things before you'd even heard of Jeremy Corbyn. Some of us actually take time to understand complex issues. We aren't all led by the Daily Mail headlines you know. 

Do you believe Corbyn when he says Johnson will sell the nhs to trump? 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

7 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Do you believe Corbyn when he says Johnson will sell the nhs to trump? 

He's got a first class degree and is a trained negotiator, together with an unsurpassed knowledge of the universe.

About time he stood for election. We all be millionaires.

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Do you believe Corbyn when he says Johnson will sell the nhs to trump? 

He's talking about including elements of the NHS in trade talks. Do I think Boris would - yes - if he thought he could get away with it - and his front bench definitely would. 

 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Not good that story.

An interesting point about services dropping off. Presumably these are monitored for performance and they're sacked off if they don't perform adequately?

Much as you'd hope an underperforming individual or group would be sacked if they worked 'in house'.

There will always be this argument and hopefully, if it's shown that certain functions aren't being performed well enough privately, then they'd come back. 

Still need to have the right people doing and managing the functions, whatever the set-up.

See how many years Northern Rail have failed for....its not that easy.

Easier to improve a service you run than one you commission. And with healthcare by the time targets in an SLA/contract are being missed its often too late. 

[MickyD]

Profit driven doesn't necessarily mean shit service. Trains, for example, are an area where profit is the be all and end all of the business. Virgin seen to keep their rolling stock at an acceptable level as do lots of other franchises. It's the plebs up here who seem to run on second hand trains bought from tbe folk who are upgrading their own.  Basically running railways on tbe cheap in the north west. 

Even the new trains that are now running through Bolton on the electric lines have been used somewhere else for a few years. So if someone is replacing their stock only a few years in why aren't northern? 

[Mounts Kipper]

13 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

He's talking about including elements of the NHS in trade talks. Do I think Boris would - yes - if he thought he could get away with it - and his front bench definitely would. 

 

Confirms my thoughts that you are blinded by political indoctrination, no further discussion required. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

Yes - because the same things always happen. It starts off well, with great energy and gusto. Then over time, the service gets poorer and poorer as the inevitable need to earn more and more money for the contract gets demanded. Then the NHS have to start picking up the slack which costs even more money, time and stress for the staff and patients. And eventually it ends up coming back under the auspices of the NHS after years of fannying about.

In Bolton we outsourced patient transport to Arriva. It was an absolute disaster. What used to be a fairly straight forward service turned into a shambles. They were failing year on year. 

Eventually Arriva were fined for cooking the books and charging the NHS for services they hadn't provided.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/arriva-ambulance-bonus-payback-mps-10377387

It's not just in Bolton either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-34474299

Thanks for that, most helpful and informative 

Are there any examples of it working?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Confirms my thoughts that you are blinded by political indoctrination, no further discussion required. 

So you are saying they will not carry on with the increasing privatisation of NHS services nor will they offer up any part of the NHS in US trade talks? 

And if they do we can call you and they liars and charlatans? Yes or no?

[Mounts Kipper]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

So you are saying they will not carry on with the increasing privatisation of NHS services nor will they offer up any part of the NHS in US trade talks? 

And if they do we can call you and they liars and charlatans? Yes or no?

I’m saying the nhs isn’t up for sale, it won’t be used as a bargaining chip however I’ll let government decide how much is privatised, as long as it’s free at source to UK citizens I cannot see what the issue is. Call me what you want, but don’t call me gullible, that’s for those who believe, dum and dee. 

[Guest]

Just now, Mounts Kipper said:

I’m saying the nhs isn’t up for sale, it won’t be used as a bargaining chip however I’ll let government decide how much is privatised, as long as it’s free at source to UK citizens I cannot see what the issue is. Call me what you want, but don’t call me gullible, that’s for those who believe, dum and dee. 

So you're saying it is up for sale then? You seem to be confused by what the debate is. 

Gradual privatisation of NHS services = selling off the NHS. That's what the discussion is about. You said it wasn't for sale. We've shown you it already is. So I'm really not sure what it is you're trying to argue here.

 

[Mounts Kipper]

13 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

So you're saying it is up for sale then? You seem to be confused by what the debate is. 

Gradual privatisation of NHS services = selling off the NHS. That's what the discussion is about. You said it wasn't for sale. We've shown you it already is. So I'm really not sure what it is you're trying to argue here.

 

It really is quite simple the NHS will not be sold to Donald Trump and the U.S. as you and JC seem to believe, some areas might benefit being taken over by the private sector whether that is 7% as it is today or 5% or 10% is up to the government of the day to decide, and that decision might be made by a Labour or Tory government, both parties have already made that call in the past, this discussion is about your claim and that of Jeremy that the whole of the NHS will be sold and be part of any trade deal with Trump, that claim is clearly bullshit. As I said previously when folk are indoctrinated and trying to make political gain out of something that wont happen (basically lying) then there is really no point in continuing the discussion. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

It really is quite simple the NHS will not be sold to Donald Trump and the U.S. as you and JC seem to believe, some areas might benefit being taken over by the private sector whether that is 7% as it is today or 5% or 10% is up to the government of the day to decide, and that decision might be made by a Labour or Tory government, both parties have already made that call in the past, this discussion is about your claim and that of Jeremy that the whole of the NHS will be sold and be part of any trade deal with Trump, that claim is clearly bullshit. As I said previously when folk are indoctrinated and trying to make political gain out of something that wont happen (basically lying) then there is really no point in continuing the discussion. 

That isn’t the argument and the fact you can’t understand it at all and keep reverting to tabloid headline slogans rather than showing any appreciable depth of understanding means it’s pointless continuing the discussion. 

[kent_white]

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

What a surprise from him.

The man who prorogued to stop an investigation.

As for his comments; not a clue about Gove- never heard him comment.

As for Boris- can't remember exactly, but did he once mention about folk paying to see a GP? Might have been him, or maybe someone else.

Don't agree with that, but it's hardly a sell off.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Confirms my thoughts that you are blinded by political indoctrination, no further discussion required. 

Tories bad

[Ani]

2 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

It really is quite simple the NHS will not be sold to Donald Trump and the U.S. as you and JC seem to believe, some areas might benefit being taken over by the private sector whether that is 7% as it is today or 5% or 10% is up to the government of the day to decide, and that decision might be made by a Labour or Tory government, both parties have already made that call in the past, this discussion is about your claim and that of Jeremy that the whole of the NHS will be sold and be part of any trade deal with Trump, that claim is clearly bullshit. As I said previously when folk are indoctrinated and trying to make political gain out of something that wont happen (basically lying) then there is really no point in continuing the discussion. 

Mounts do you think the likes of Boris, JRM Farage and Gove would look after the NHS ? Do you think they will clamp down on tax avoidance to fund this ? Do you think they will push an insurance based scheme so you in essence pay for cover more like the US model ? 
 

Try and avoid ‘Corbyn/Labour‘  digs in your response. 

[Salford Trotter]

Farage is laying into Johnson claiming the WA is not Brexit, is there anyone on here that agrees with him? 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Farage is laying into Johnson claiming the WA is not Brexit, is there anyone on here that agrees with him? 

Farage or Johnson?

Edited November 4, 2019 by boltondiver

[Salford Trotter]

Just now, boltondiver said:

Farage or Johnson?

Farage

[Guest]

Just now, Salford Trotter said:

Farage

No, I don’t agree with him

[Salford Trotter]

1 minute ago, boltondiver said:

No, I don’t agree with him

👍

[Mounts Kipper]

13 minutes ago, Ani said:

Mounts do you think the likes of Boris, JRM Farage and Gove would look after the NHS ? Do you think they will clamp down on tax avoidance to fund this ? Do you think they will push an insurance based scheme so you in essence pay for cover more like the US model ? 
 

Try and avoid ‘Corbyn/Labour‘  digs in your response. 

I do not think that Johnson is stupid enough to contemplate selling off the NHS lock stock and barrel, debate on how we fund the NHS ion future is inevitable and should be welcomed, whether we personally pay medical insurance, increase taxes/ NI or look at tax avoidance to fund it is a matter for each individual party and subsequently the electorate then to decide the way forward. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

13 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Farage

I don't agree with him either.

JRM comments earlier made sense.

Having got a deal which parliament sort of agreed to, it renders no deal an unnecessary action.

Ok, for some that's what they want, and that's their prerogative. Can't see it ever gaining enough momentum as a primary leave mechanism.

Moreover, Boris stood on a leave with a deal pledge at the referendum. Be foolhardy to change that no.

I really think Farage is just being a bit of a thruster to get some MPs in the hoc. He's not daft.