What is that "mate" of mine Sadiq Khan trying to achieve ?

 

You lost you demented little cretin, get over it and concentrate on your job you terrorist sympathiser.

It won't stop Brexit but it will ensure we are not railroaded into a bad deal...it's called democracy or should we just do away with Parliament fullstop?

 

Of course we should not dispense with parliament however isn't it interesting that those who want to give our sovereignty to Brussels forever are now using it in an attempt to keep Brussels in control. Fucking Hypocrites.       

Again, I’m not sure you grasp the concept of sovereignty Mounts.

 

Last night was a clear demonstration of the UK’s democratic governance - the thing you’ve been going on about us not having (for some reason)

 

Instead of glossing over the real reason why you voted out - which seems to be a boarder control we had in place - why not tackle the issues with successive governments (both Tory and labour) such as the lack of investment in regional towns, benefits systems that leave people poorer, lack of planning for affordable homes, lack of controls on the financial sector instead of blaming ‘Europe’ or immigrants who overwhelmingly are the poorest and therefore least influential people in this country.

 

Taking back control is not wresting it from Brussels, it’s making our own elected representatives more accountable. These global trade deals that Brexiteers say we’ll all be reaping the benefits from in 15-20 years will count for naught if the public focus their discontent at their living standards closer to home and Parliament directs any investment into ways that directly help us, from wherever we live in this country and whatever our background. Moderation used to be a watchword for Britain, it seems somewhere we have lost one of our guiding principles, along with tolerance and respect.

 

That’s why Farage was able to whip up people into such a state, it’s a faceless enemy that you are fighting and complex issues outlined above are distilled into targeted anger on one focus. It’s easier to understand fit anyone. The whole toxic mix brought to a head by a needless referendum to settle internal party politics.

 

There is no easy answer to this, there are no black and white divisions despite what those who push single agendas squeal to the media. You can be angry and not follow the dog whistle, change is important for this country at this time, let’s not forget why we are one of the oldest democracies in the world in the process.

No, they didn't. They voted to give parliament a meaningful vote. Its how it works and should work. 

 

Also the "democratic will of the people" is such a tired line. The democratic will of the people voted a minority government. That means the government is more accountable to Parliament. So that IS the democratic will of the people. Also if we had another vote tomorrow and more voted to scrap brexit and remain that would be the democratic will of the people. In other words, it changes. And parliament is there to enact to the best of its ability the democratic will. Reducing parliament to a sideshow whilst the government could push through any deal it fancied is the very epitome of undemocratic. Fact. 

 

 

It took 40 years to overturn the decision to join the EU and decision that was made without the people knowing anything about what they were signing up for, over 40 years we have had to accept that decision without the public being given the opportunity to change our minds so I make no apology that now we have had that opportunity that we act on that decision in a similar fashion to how we did all those years ago. You can have another vote in 40 years.                 

Edited December 14, 20178 yr by Mounts Kipper

Again, I’m not sure you grasp the concept of sovereignty Mounts.

 

Last night was a clear demonstration of the UK’s democratic governance - the thing you’ve been going on about us not having (for some reason)

 

Instead of glossing over the real reason why you voted out - which seems to be a boarder control we had in place - why not tackle the issues with successive governments (both Tory and labour) such as the lack of investment in regional towns, benefits systems that leave people poorer, lack of planning for affordable homes, lack of controls on the financial sector instead of blaming ‘Europe’ or immigrants who overwhelmingly are the poorest and therefore least influential people in this country.

 

Taking back control is not wresting it from Brussels, it’s making our own elected representatives more accountable. These global trade deals that Brexiteers say we’ll all be reaping the benefits from in 15-20 years will count for naught if the public focus their discontent at their living standards closer to home and Parliament directs any investment into ways that directly help us, from wherever we live in this country and whatever our background. Moderation used to be a watchword for Britain, it seems somewhere we have lost one of our guiding principles, along with tolerance and respect.

 

That’s why Farage was able to whip up people into such a state, it’s a faceless enemy that you are fighting and complex issues outlined above are distilled into targeted anger on one focus. It’s easier to understand fit anyone. The whole toxic mix brought to a head by a needless referendum to settle internal party politics.

 

There is no easy answer to this, there are no black and white divisions despite what those who push single agendas squeal to the media. You can be angry and not follow the dog whistle, change is important for this country at this time, let’s not forget why we are one of the oldest democracies in the world in the process.

 

 

I know exactly what sovereignty is I want our parliament to be held accountable by the British people and not in any way shape or form controlled or partly controlled by Brussels. You on the other hand want Brussels to make take control of our affairs. I am not convinced they act in our best interests or that we can actually influence them enough from inside the EU to improve our lot and act in our best interests and for that reason I am out. 

Again, I’m not sure you grasp the concept of sovereignty Mounts.

 

Last night was a clear demonstration of the UK’s democratic governance - the thing you’ve been going on about us not having (for some reason)

 

Instead of glossing over the real reason why you voted out - which seems to be a boarder control we had in place - why not tackle the issues with successive governments (both Tory and labour) such as the lack of investment in regional towns, benefits systems that leave people poorer, lack of planning for affordable homes, lack of controls on the financial sector instead of blaming ‘Europe’ or immigrants who overwhelmingly are the poorest and therefore least influential people in this country.

 

Taking back control is not wresting it from Brussels, it’s making our own elected representatives more accountable. These global trade deals that Brexiteers say we’ll all be reaping the benefits from in 15-20 years will count for naught if the public focus their discontent at their living standards closer to home and Parliament directs any investment into ways that directly help us, from wherever we live in this country and whatever our background. Moderation used to be a watchword for Britain, it seems somewhere we have lost one of our guiding principles, along with tolerance and respect.

 

That’s why Farage was able to whip up people into such a state, it’s a faceless enemy that you are fighting and complex issues outlined above are distilled into targeted anger on one focus. It’s easier to understand fit anyone. The whole toxic mix brought to a head by a needless referendum to settle internal party politics.

 

There is no easy answer to this, there are no black and white divisions despite what those who push single agendas squeal to the media. You can be angry and not follow the dog whistle, change is important for this country at this time, let’s not forget why we are one of the oldest democracies in the world in the process.

 

Typical Brexiteer

That’s what happened last night. Again, I’m not sure why you are so angry or why you feel government has lost, would have lost or had lost its sovereignty.

 

At not one point have I said I want Brussels to take charge of our affairs, although I’m still unsure about what affairs you talk of? Or is it just boarder control, which I think was dealt with elsewhere?

 

I’m currently working on some GDPR guidance for cultural organisations, this is a European piece of legislation - is the the stuff you want to stop? It means that individuals have more control over how their personal information is used and gives citizens control over their personal information. Seems like a good idea to me.

 

It just seems that this frustration you have, whilst understandable, is misdirected.

Why do the Brexit brigade think parliament having a say will lead to the leaving deal becoming softer ?

 

If the deal agreed by the negotiating team is too ‘soft’ do we not want parliament to have the ability to say No ? And demand it is toughened up ? Also now in the negotiation surely DD can take a hard stance and use the fact it needs to be ratified as a chance to draw a line in the sand ?

 

EU insists on open borders and the negotiators agree that as they for other concessions that gets the best overall deal. Don’t we want people whose job depends on public support to be able to say fuck off ?

Or is it just boarder control

It's 'BORDER' you slliy dyselxic fckuer! :-)

Because now they think it’s going to be easier for the EU as parliament has to ratify so the fear, I suspect, would be the opposition would simply take the opportunity to inflict damage on the government regardless of the deal offered.

 

However, as with everything, it’s more complex so you’ll see a lot of side deals, crossings of the floor. Although in reality those tories were not ‘rebelling’ against Brexit, they were asking for Parliament to be considered as a democratic right of this country.

 

Labour’s front bench is pretty much Eurosceptic anyway which they keep quiet about as the majority of the new membership which supports the shadow cabinet is pro euro. It’s Labour’s senior backbench that is also pro-Euro but finds no other common ground with Momentum.

 

What it might have done is embolden pro Europeans in Parliament which might mean a ‘softer’ Brexit. (and if someone can explain to me why this has become a noun and what the fuckery it actually means I’d be grateful- although I think in Brexiteer speak this means letting people with dusky hue into Dover) or it might mean we actually get a reasoned debate on any proposed bill, rather than a sign off by a small band within the cabinet who are there to prop up a leader no one in the party wants...

It's 'BORDER' you slliy dyselxic fckuer! :-)

Ufkc uyo utcnyllabs

As the brexit team seem a bunch of clowns I'm happy that Parliament gets a say in the final deal.

 

I've no idea how it can be seen as a bad idea, neither of the 2 main political parties want to stop brexit. They just want it to be done properly.

 

Corbyn has long been a critic of the EU so will be happy to see the back if it as long as the deal doesn't harm the uk

Ufkc uyo utcnyllabs

You've fucked your uncle Albert?

That despicable twat Grieve used the phrase 'The sabotage of the will of the people". I could not have put it better myself.

 

Utter cunts for whom the night of the long knives will hopefully not be far away.

You’ll be no doubt glad to hear about this

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/14/dominic-grieve-says-he-has-had-death-threats-after-brexit-rebellion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

What he says about not being about to have a reasonable debate in this atmosphere is completely correct. Calling people cunts because you don’t agree with someone’s position is a thin end of this particularly nasty wedge, and seems to keep being perpetuated by certain Brexit zealots.

 

The rest of us want a bit more calm and a lot more listening on every side so that points and facts and be correctly debated not bebasted.

 

The fact we’ve had an MP murdered in the last 18 months and it still hasnt shook us out of this mania still shocks me.

You’ll be no doubt glad to hear about this

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/14/dominic-grieve-says-he-has-had-death-threats-after-brexit-rebellion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

What he says about not being about to have a reasonable debate in this atmosphere is completely correct. Calling people cunts because you don’t agree with someone’s position is a thin end of this particularly nasty wedge, and seems to keep being perpetuated by certain Brexit zealots.

 

The rest of us want a bit more calm and a lot more listening on every side so that points and facts and be correctly debated not bebasted.

 

The fact we’ve had an MP murdered in the last 18 months and it still hasnt shook us out of this mania still shocks me.

I’m quite sure Bolty wasn’t insinuating that Grieve should be murdered just that he thinks he’s a cunt. Other that agree with your point.

If you voted to 'remain' in the referendum vote can you explain, with everything we now know, why it would be better for us to remain in EU

 

The vote in parliament last night was an opportunity for 309 MP's to vote against Theresa May and the Conservative government for a variety of reasons

The Labour MP's were told to vote against the government by their 'whips' although two, Frank Field and Kate Hoey voted with the Government, a lot of Labour MP's voted for Brexit so if it comes to a vote on the final deal I would expect them to vote to accept it

 

Are Labour a 'Remain' party or a 'Brexit' party?

 

The 11 Tory MP's who voted 'against' all have a different 'axe' to grind and in the end there 15 minutes of fame will not have changed anything

 

I go back to the truth that Barnier, Junker and the rest of the EU want to shaft us and TM and DD are trying to get GB the best deal possible, no body knows what that will be but for me anything that stops us paying £10 Billion a year into the EU is preferable

I keep hearing that we didn't really know what we were voting for. I think there's some truth in that too.

 

What we weren't voting for though is for our decision to be obstructed by parliament, which is how it feels right now.

 

The remainers will win the day though. They've pi55ed and moaned since the result and the whole thing has turned into such a cluster feck, staying as were doesn't seem so bad. I'm resigned to it now. We're staying in

I’m quite sure Bolty wasn’t insinuating that Grieve should be murdered just that he thinks he’s a cunt. Other that agree with your point.

Never mind all that

 

Is this what you predicted? That’s the crux of it all

I’m quite sure Bolty wasn’t insinuating that Grieve should be murdered just that he thinks he’s a cunt. Other that agree with your point.

 

He knew full well what I meant. Thank you for clarifying though.

Never mind all that

 

Is this what you predicted? That’s the crux of it all

Mounts has predicted everything perfectly so far and will do all the way to the final deal.

He knew full well what I meant. Thank you for clarifying though.

You also knew full well what I meant. As I said quite clearly - it’s the thin end of a particularly nasty wedge - where discussion is shut down by emotive, and now all too often overly aggressive, responses. It does no one any favours and seriously weakens the position you hold.

 

As Grieve was saying no one is upset when people challange or disagree; but in this sort of atmosphere- stoked up by section of the media - you actually can’t discuss the issues at hand, in this case whether our own Parliament should ratify our exit deal with Europe, not if Brexit is a good idea or not. Calling MPs ‘traitors’ or cunts without addressing the actual issue is at best distraction, at worst fuels the febrile atmosphere that shuts down any opposing views, and that my erstwhile Australian friend, is what I’m trying to clarify for you here.

If you voted to 'remain' in the referendum vote can you explain, with everything we now know, why it would be better for us to remain in EU

 

The vote in parliament last night was an opportunity for 309 MP's to vote against Theresa May and the Conservative government for a variety of reasons

The Labour MP's were told to vote against the government by their 'whips' although two, Frank Field and Kate Hoey voted with the Government, a lot of Labour MP's voted for Brexit so if it comes to a vote on the final deal I would expect them to vote to accept it

 

Are Labour a 'Remain' party or a 'Brexit' party?

 

The 11 Tory MP's who voted 'against' all have a different 'axe' to grind and in the end there 15 minutes of fame will not have changed anything

 

I go back to the truth that Barnier, Junker and the rest of the EU want to shaft us and TM and DD are trying to get GB the best deal possible, no body knows what that will be but for me anything that stops us paying £10 Billion a year into the EU is preferable

11 Labour MPs backed Leave, 200 and something backed Remain. Privately I think it’s probably fair to assume many of the opposition front bench are Eurosceptic - given their overwhelming silence on challenging the government. Here is the odd thing though, in trying to negotiate the choppy waters since the referendum, MPs have abandoned previously held positions like Mrs May for example. In such cases it’s right to question why.

 

The real fact of the matter is it isn’t as binary as saying, “I don’t want to give money to the EU”, but that’s what people seemed to be faced with. Like the election of Donald Trump a few months later, a huge amount of people felt left behind and forgotten, whilst the elite (and yes, faceless and unaccountable bureaucrats) never seemed to suffer from decisions they made. Add into this the growing threat of global terrorism bringing it right into the heart of western countries and the collapse of global financial institutions, people wanted direction for their anger and apportion blame for the situation.

 

As history teaches, when this happens, and our leaders fail to address these issues adequately, a vacuum appears where it’s easy for single issue populist tubthumpers to rally people to direct their anger towards single institutions, or certain sections of society. Currently, In the UK it’s the Euro, in the US it was Washington. The thing that binds it together is they don’t address the real problems and the elite are still not held to account.

 

People here blame immigration for our social ills, but overwhelmingly that position is taken in the poorest towns in our country. The same in the US, it’s not surprising and the neoliberals were idiots to ignore what many saw coming. However, that should not mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater, as western democracies go through a period of (possibly welcome?) change we need to focus on what brings us together globally, not what drives us apart. Otherwise we will always lose the battle against combatting religious extremism, helping the poorest in our country (from wherever they originate) and be distracted from the war of misinformation that is currently being waged by despotic regimes.

I keep hearing that we didn't really know what we were voting for. I think there's some truth in that too.

 

What we weren't voting for though is for our decision to be obstructed by parliament, which is how it feels right now.

 

The remainers will win the day though. They've pi55ed and moaned since the result and the whole thing has turned into such a cluster feck, staying as were doesn't seem so bad. I'm resigned to it now. We're staying in

Brexiteers pissed and moaned for years before the referendum, the people moaning have just switched

 

You get people ‘pissing and moaning’ for years when the party they vote for loses a General Election, that’s just politics

 

I’m not sure why anyone would have assumed that this would change following a referendum

Mounts has predicted everything perfectly so far and will do all the way to the final deal.

The twists and turns I did not predict nor could anyone it’s the final outcome I’ve predicted that we will leave with a trade deal and our sovereignty controlling our borders and it’ll all work out fine. While you’ve predicted domesday would happen as soon as we voted to leave. None of that has happened yet has it?

This really has to be the last time, we have always controlled ‘our borders’

 

Saying we will leave with a trade deal is neither here nor there, what sort of deal us what should be concerning us.

 

No one is predicting ‘domesday’ but it is allowed to point out that whilst inflation continues to rise beyond salary increases , and people continue to be squeezed financially if at this point in time leaving a secure global institution is the correct thing to do given the raft of reasons people gave for wanting to leave.

 

Not one world leader will say “ it’ll all work out fine” so you must forgive us if we don’t takes posters on a football forum at face value.

This really has to be the last time, we have always controlled ‘our borders’

 

Saying we will leave with a trade deal is neither here nor there, what sort of deal us what should be concerning us.

 

No one is predicting ‘domesday’ but it is allowed to point out that whilst inflation continues to rise beyond salary increases , and people continue to be squeezed financially if at this point in time leaving a secure global institution is the correct thing to do given the raft of reasons people gave for wanting to leave.

 

Not one world leader will say “ it’ll all work out fine” so you must forgive us if we don’t takes posters on a football forum at face value.

I’ll rephrase controlled who can enter the uk unilaterally. Is that better?