What is that "mate" of mine Sadiq Khan trying to achieve ?

 

You lost you demented little cretin, get over it and concentrate on your job you terrorist sympathiser.

How can we act as the USA's 'Pied-a-terre' in Europe when we've just removed our own foot from the door?

 

And I wouldn't necessarily describe myself as a Socialist - more of a pragmatist. I'd quite happily accept rampant free market capitalism if it meant we all ended up being better off as a result.

 

We might well end up making a success of things - providing we get the right inspirational leader in place (no sign of that happening at the moment tbough). But surely even you'd have to admit that our circumstances are less favourable than they have been at any time in the past few hundred years?

 

 

Once again, we are diametrically opposed in views.

 

I would say the very act of leaving gives us the potential of much more favourable circumstances than we have seen for a very long time. All depends if the enemies of the people get their way and continue to successfully obstruct, frustrate and generally spoil the opportunity in their continual Remoaner fits of pique or whether they finally say 'fuck it, we have lost' and set about making Britain great again by putting their shoulders to the wheel and giving it their best shot.

 

I was encouraged to hear the views of Remain voter Marcus Wareing yesterday who originally was in the Gina Miller camp but has now realised the potential for sourcing produce from British growers and wine makers etc. and now sees it as a 'massive opportunity for Britain'.

 

This is what is needed - not the sulky fucking whining from the losers who simply hate the fact that they lost rather than truly wanting to remain linked to the failed political experiment.

Daily Mail not happy.

 

 

That despicable twat Grieve used the phrase 'The sabotage of the will of the people". I could not have put it better myself.

 

Utter cunts for whom the night of the long knives will hopefully not be far away.

I can see that happening also but it clearly isn’t what was voted for by the majority.

all this soft/hard brexit ideology only came to light when the vote didn’t go the way it was anticipated and the government started to look for a back door to back track.

To be fair to TM she has it appears tried to deliver what the majority wanted but her own fuck up in the election has allowed it to be undermined and derailed and now we’re stuck in no mans land which isn’t good for either remainers or leavers

It’s an utter mess and a complete shambles. As has been said on here before David Cameron has a lot to answer for as do previous governments for allowing a majority to be come so disillusioned .

I agree with a number of posters on here that all this has done is weakened our position and we are now less influential in any meaning of the word and I for one would have voted to remain if I had known this is where it would end up as it’s a complete waste of time and money for little conceivable benefit now

It is a clusterfuck because people did not know what they were voting for.

 

Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, Brexit meaning Brexit, divorce bills, open borders, free movement, trade deals etc etc.

 

All still being debated but anyone questions the logic is dismissed by shouters such as Bolty as a traitor.

 

We want to take control and have our democratic processes replace Brussels but people arguing that our parliament should have a say are slagged off.

 

And it is all worth it, despite not knowing what we will get or how much it will cost.

That Soubry woman needs boxing up with Thornberry, Mick Hucknall and put in Richard Branson’s box to be fired into space and never to return.

 

Despicable people

It is a clusterfuck because people did not know what they were voting for.

 

Hard Brexit, soft Brexit, Brexit meaning Brexit, divorce bills, open borders, free movement, trade deals etc etc.

 

All still being debated but anyone questions the logic is dismissed by shouters such as Bolty as a traitor.

 

We want to take control and have our democratic processes replace Brussels but people arguing that our parliament should have a say are slagged off.

 

And it is all worth it, despite not knowing what we will get or how much it will cost.

 

 

I did not use upper case once, cuntybollocks (apart from in the grammatically correct places of course  ).

 

All I have seen from the Remoan side is obstruction and diversion. They would rather the country went down in flames just to have the opportunity to say 'I told you so'.

 

All of the 'owd, racist cunts', 'little Englanders' and such jibes ('shouters') simply harden the resolve.

 

I just hope that Soubry and the dirty dozen with her who betrayed the people and their own party get what's coming to them.

I did not use upper case once, cuntybollocks (apart from in the grammatically correct places of course ).

 

All I have seen from the Remoan side is obstruction and diversion. They would rather the country went down in flames just to have the opportunity to say 'I told you so'.

 

All of the 'owd, racist cunts', 'little Englanders' and such jibes ('shouters') simply harden the resolve.

 

I just hope that Soubry and the dirty dozen with her who betrayed the people and their own party get what's coming to them.

Obstruction and diversion seems to mean saying our democratically elected parliament have final say on the deal that is negotiated behind the scenes as a result of a referendum which has no constitutional power.

 

That does not mean we should remain or that we need a new referendum. It does our constitutional bodies is getting the final say on this. I thought that was the whole point us taking control ?

So part of the leave campaign's wish list was for our government to "start making its own laws"

They have this vote which means that we'll be making our own law and they're not happy?

Obstruction and diversion seems to mean saying our democratically elected parliament have final say on the deal that is negotiated behind the scenes as a result of a referendum which has no constitutional power.

 

That does not mean we should remain or that we need a new referendum. It does our constitutional bodies is getting the final say on this. I thought that was the whole point us taking control ?

 

 

You know full well this is political bastardry with the intent to obfuscate. To try and dress it up as anything else won't wash.

 

The real concern here is that the odds of you getting Red Jeremy and his militant scouse mate at the helm have dramatically increased. If that had been mooted as a possible consequence of Brexit, Remain may well have got up.

 

I would not wish that on any of you. Well, maybe NIC.

It’s quite hilarious that remainers get to defeat the government on 1 amendment by four votes and the shout goes up no one knew what they were voting for reverse Brexit etc etc in reality it means very little just strengthens EU hand and means we will pay more to get the deal done, well done pat yourselves on the back you’ve cost the country needless billions and we’re still leaving.

Edited December 14, 20178 yr by Mounts Kipper

There's some fucking gloaters on here, like a pack of spineless repeaters

It’s quite hilarious that remainers get to defeat the government on 1 amendment by four votes and the shout goes up no one knew what they were voting for reverse Brexit etc etc in reality it means very little just strengthens EU hand and means we will pay more to get the deal done, well done pat yourselves on the back you’ve cost the country needless billions and we’re still leaving.

You could argue MPs voting and wasting needless billions is following the lead of the people.

 

Did you not expect this to happen if your calculations of it being a good or bad idea to leave ?

I can see that happening also but it clearly isn’t what was voted for by the majority.

 

 

I think the point is nobody really knew what they were voting for. The average man on the street didn't know there would be the possibility of a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit.. .they just assumed "Brexit means brexit" with no clue as to what tgat actually meant.

 

With regards to last night's vote, I don't know why people are so worried. This is 100% what the "leave" voters voted for (or so they say) so why is it now a problem?

I think the point is nobody really knew what they were voting for. The average man on the street didn't know there would be the possibility of a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit.. .they just assumed "Brexit means brexit" with no clue as to what tgat actually meant.

 

With regards to last night's vote, I don't know why people are so worried. This is 100% what the "leave" voters voted for (or so they say) so why is it now a problem?

The leavers are pissed off because the whole thing is becoming as big a farce as people predicted and it is easier to blame everyone else than admit this.

 

Escobarp is on of the first strong leavers to actual acknowledge the farce. Bolty and Mounts far too entrenched to admit anything. Blame the others.

 

With regards to last night's vote, I don't know why people are so worried. This is 100% what the "leave" voters voted for (or so they say) so why is it now a problem?

How do you reach that conclusion ?

 

You’re one of the few I take heed of in this subject on here so I would be interested to know why you feel we “leavers” have got what we voted for? I feel very differently as one of those “leavers”

How do you reach that conclusion ?

 

You’re one of the few I take heed of in this subject on here so I would be interested to know why you feel we “leavers” have got what we voted for? I feel very differently as one of those “leavers”

I am guessing he means our parliament getting the final say so our constitutional democratic bodies decide if the deal is right.

 

I am sure no one means all the fucking about and/or the terms of the deal.

You could argue MPs voting and wasting needless billions is following the lead of the people.

 

Did you not expect this to happen if your calculations of it being a good or bad idea to leave ?

 

 

Can you predict what is going to occur in the EU in the next 10 years? If you cannot predict that then your argument we should not leave because we do not know what will happen through the leaving process or when when we leave is pretty hollow and cannot be used as an argument to reverse or stop Brexit. And FWIW the whole shenanigans brought about by Remainers, Europhiles and the EU will just harden my and many folks resolve to leave this extortionate and undemocratic bunch of cronies even more.   

Edited December 14, 20178 yr by Mounts Kipper

Can you predict what is going to occur in the EU in the next 10 years? If you cannot predict that then your argument we should not leave because we do not know what will happen through the leaving process or when when we leave is pretty hollow and cannot be used as an argument to reverse or stop Brexit. And FWIW the whole shenanigans brought about by Remainers, Europhiles and the EU will just harden my and many folks resolve to leave this extortionate and undemocratic bunch of cronies even more.

When Have i mentioned stopping or reversing anything ?

Edited December 14, 20178 yr by Ani

Once again, we are diametrically opposed in views.

 

I would say the very act of leaving gives us the potential of much more favourable circumstances than we have seen for a very long time. All depends if the enemies of the people get their way and continue to successfully obstruct, frustrate and generally spoil the opportunity in their continual Remoaner fits of pique or whether they finally say 'fuck it, we have lost' and set about making Britain great again by putting their shoulders to the wheel and giving it their best shot.

 

I was encouraged to hear the views of Remain voter Marcus Wareing yesterday who originally was in the Gina Miller camp but has now realised the potential for sourcing produce from British growers and wine makers etc. and now sees it as a 'massive opportunity for Britain'.

 

This is what is needed - not the sulky fucking whining from the losers who simply hate the fact that they lost rather than truly wanting to remain linked to the failed political experiment.

Contrary to what you might think - I'd be happier with a hard Brexit as opposed than one where we end up having to live by EU imposed regulations over which we no longer have any control.

 

As I've made clear, I'd have preferred to stay in and influence the EU from the inside - but seen as we are leaving, I don't think we've much choice other than to cut ties completely and go are own way. Economically painful as that might be in the short - medium term. Otherwise we end up just being some sort of EU satellite state on the peripheries with no competitive advantage.

 

I'd agree that leaving gives us the 'potential' of much more favourable circumstances - but it's a hell of a gamble.

Having read this, I’m not quite sure Mounts, Bolty and Esco fully understand how our parliament, or indeed referendums, work.

 

To avoid confusion in this debate, parliament is given sovereignty by our Queen. The people, as a whole do not have the sovereign right - this is given to parliament to represent us; because managing a country is difficult and hard and it’s beyond most of us to fully understand what the actually realities of macro and micro economics, social policy, NDPBs etc etc and we have an open system where we elect people on our behalf to do this is an open and transparent way.

 

Any referendum is advisory- it is not ‘the will of the people’ despite they emotional hyperbole used by our friends in the Mail to push through a single agenda. Even if it had turned out the same percentages to stay in the EU any new deal should be ratified by the whole House. And by that read Nation.

 

This is a great system - not perfect - but good (Bolts would like this bit if he wasn’t so keen on sticking his fingers in his ears) as it stops any tangerine idiot claiming a victory and rewriting legislation. God bless you m’am.

 

So to try and detoxify this particular little part of the thread, all that has happened is the House (and by extension us the people) get to review any deal and hold those who are charged with making in into account.

 

Brexit will happen, but just not on a narrow euroscepic only agreement. As Cameron said yesterday, I’m no starry eyed Davos devotee, but to mine one particular thread of negotiation without due application and protest is decided against the direct benefit of the people of this country and only those true believers signed up to a cutting ties at all costs narrative could and would justify otherwise.

It’s quite hilarious that remainers get to defeat the government on 1 amendment by four votes and the shout goes up no one knew what they were voting for reverse Brexit etc etc in reality it means very little just strengthens EU hand and means we will pay more to get the deal done, well done pat yourselves on the back you’ve cost the country needless billions and we’re still leaving.

 

Hang on a second. The Tory rebels voted to protect democracy and our sovereignty by ensuring our parliament had a vote over the eventual deal. Surely, that is what the Brexit vote was for? 

 

Seems to me, you're keen on sovereignty and democracy unless it doesn't suit and then it becomes a bad thing. 

 

You might be happier in a dictatorship. 

 

Seems to me, you're keen on sovereignty and democracy unless it doesn't suit and then it becomes a bad thing.

 

In fairness, he might be like the majority of people why cry they want sovereignty.....but they don't actually know what it means ????

 

 

...actually, I know Mounts knows what it is, but the vast majority of people have no idea whatsoever

Hang on a second. The Tory rebels voted to protect democracy and our sovereignty by ensuring our parliament had a vote over the eventual deal. Surely, that is what the Brexit vote was for? 

 

Seems to me, you're keen on sovereignty and democracy unless it doesn't suit and then it becomes a bad thing. 

 

You might be happier in a dictatorship. 

 

 

You might think they voted to protect democracy however most folk with half a brain cell know that many of them voted not to uphold democracy but to try to stop Brexit which in effect is to stop the democratic will of the people.  

the democratic will of the people has oft been ignored

 

thats the joy of living in a democracy with democratically elected representatives

You might think they voted to protect democracy however most folk with half a brain cell know that many of them voted not to uphold democracy but to try to stop Brexit which in effect is to stop the democratic will of the people.  

 

No, they didn't. They voted to give parliament a meaningful vote. Its how it works and should work. 

 

Also the "democratic will of the people" is such a tired line. The democratic will of the people voted a minority government. That means the government is more accountable to Parliament. So that IS the democratic will of the people. Also if we had another vote tomorrow and more voted to scrap brexit and remain that would be the democratic will of the people. In other words, it changes. And parliament is there to enact to the best of its ability the democratic will. Reducing parliament to a sideshow whilst the government could push through any deal it fancied is the very epitome of undemocratic. Fact. 

You might think they voted to protect democracy however most folk with half a brain cell know that many of them voted not to uphold democracy but to try to stop Brexit which in effect is to stop the democratic will of the people.

It won't stop Brexit but it will ensure we are not railroaded into a bad deal...it's called democracy or should we just do away with Parliament fullstop?