Meanwhile in Israel

[BobyBrno]

1 minute ago, kent_white said:

Appreciate it's a grey area given 'the fog of war' however according to what I've just read........

'Farhan Haq, deputy spokesman for the United Nations Secretary-General, said the overall number of fatalities recorded by authorities in Gaza and reported by the U.N. have "remained unchanged at more than 35,000 people" since Oct. 7, 2023, when Hamas launched a violent attack on Israel.' 

Not sure on ratios. But for balance - Hamas killed 36 children on October 7th. So 333 Palestinian children to 1 Israeli child seems completely disproportional as a response. Not that I'd advocate the tit for tat killing of children as revenge of course. 

Read the bit in bold. The authorities in Gaza are Hamas. Hamas are a terrorist organisation.
The figures given by the terrorists never include terrorists. It’s always civilians. Do you not find that odd?

[kent_white]

4 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

Read the bit in bold. The authorities in Gaza are Hamas. Hamas are a terrorist organisation.
The figures given by the terrorists never include terrorists. It’s always civilians. Do you not find that odd?

I've read the bit in bold. 

And no I don't find it odd that Hamas don't release figures on casualties - the same way I don't think it's odd that Ukraine don't. 

I'll be extremely pleased if the figures Hamas quote about civilian casualties are vastly over inflated. But they're not being contested by our intelligence services the way that (for example) Russia's casualty figures are disputed. And the UN seem to be pretty confident in them too.

So in the absence of evidence that these figures are being inflated. That's the best estimation we've got......

[Winchester White]

The figures are likely to be inflated by Hamas of course but if you look at the state of the destruction in Gaza then you know it is really very bad.  We are talking Grozny kind of bad and many civilians could flee before the Russians flattened it.

History won't be kind on Netanyahu or unfortunately Israel after this.

It's a fucked up world.

[BobyBrno]

5 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I've read the bit in bold. 

And no I don't find it odd that Hamas don't release figures on casualties - the same way I don't think it's odd that Ukraine don't. 

I'll be extremely pleased if the figures Hamas quote about civilian casualties are vastly over inflated. But they're not being contested by our intelligence services the way that (for example) Russia's casualty figures are disputed. And the UN seem to be pretty confident in them too.

So in the absence of evidence that these figures are being inflated. That's the best estimation we've got......

Ok. Here is a report that shows how difficult it is to determine exact casualties.

‘Earlier this month, Israel's government offered its first estimate of the operation's death toll, saying its troops have killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians.

In Gaza, the Hamas-run Ministry of Health says 35,000 people have died, and that it has “fully identified” nearly 25,000 of the dead.

The death toll supplied by Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and civilian deaths. Hamas maintains that most of those casualties so far are women and children.’

The link is here. 
https://www.voanews.com/amp/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html

It’s just one report. I’ve read many. 
I do not and never will believe a terrorist organisation. 

[royal white]

42 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Do you think that's what happened then? They were hidden and directing attacks? 

I thought you meant in general. I’ve no idea if this was the case in the school or the hospitals. However if the IDF know those buildings contain numerous terrorists is likely they will target them. Like Britain, and many other nations have done in recent conflicts. 

[kent_white]

9 minutes ago, royal white said:

I thought you meant in general. I’ve no idea if this was the case in the school or the hospitals. However if the IDF know those buildings contain numerous terrorists is likely they will target them. Like Britain, and many other nations have done in recent conflicts. 

I don't know if that's true or not - but I'll take your word for it.

If we're doing it too (or have done it) then I think that's beyond fucked up! 

[kent_white]

19 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

Ok. Here is a report that shows how difficult it is to determine exact casualties.

 

‘Earlier this month, Israel's government offered its first estimate of the operation's death toll, saying its troops have killed 14,000 terrorists and 16,000 civilians.

In Gaza, the Hamas-run Ministry of Health says 35,000 people have died, and that it has “fully identified” nearly 25,000 of the dead.

The death toll supplied by Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and civilian deaths. Hamas maintains that most of those casualties so far are women and children.’

The link is here. 
https://www.voanews.com/amp/israel-publishes-new-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza/7622032.html

It’s just one report. I’ve read many. 
I do not and never will believe a terrorist organisation. 

Whatever source you want to believe - that's a lot of dead children.

[London Wanderer]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

Whatever source you want to believe - that's a lot of dead children.

The evidence of a mass slaughter of innocents comes from many independent investigators and people working in Gaza. This isn't North Korea where observers are not allowed. 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

51 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Whatever source you want to believe - that's a lot of dead children.

It tragically is

If it's correct though - I'm not claiming it is and there's every possibility it isn't - then as hard as it is to believe, the civilian to combatant fatality ratio wouldn't be out of proportion to any other military combat in the modern age

And to compare with Grozny, the estimated civilian to combatant fatality ratio was estimated to be  around 10:1 in the First Chechan War and around 4:1 in the Second Chechan War

I think the estimates for the Iraq war range from about 1:2 to 3:1

Military weapons in this day and age are fucking brutal

 

[BobyBrno]

10 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

The evidence of a mass slaughter of innocents comes from many independent investigators and people working in Gaza. This isn't North Korea where observers are not allowed. 

Was it independent investigators who gave you the ‘two classrooms full of children’ info?

[kent_white]

4 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

It tragically is

If it's correct though - I'm not claiming it is and there's every possibility it isn't - then as hard as it is to believe, the civilian to combatant fatality ratio wouldn't be out of proportion to any other military combat in the modern age

And to compare with Grozny, the estimated civilian to combatant fatality ratio was estimated to be  around 10:1 in the First Chechan War and around 4:1 in the Second Chechan War

I think the estimates for the Iraq war range from about 1:2 to 3:1

Military weapons in this day and age are fucking brutal

 

Horrific. And the Chechen wars particularly so given Russia's love for scorched earth. 

Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm just being naive and this is just the nature of war in general.

You're right about modern weaponry - the speed at which some of the missiles strike doesn't even look real when you see the footage. They come in unfathomably quickly. 

I'm now onto an evening of reading about civilian deaths in war & which is a bit grim for a Thursday night. 

Just come across the following graphic which has some sobering statistics about WW2. Imagine that war being fought now? 😬

 

[London Wanderer]

2 hours ago, bolty58 said:

I wouldn't trust those cunts either!

One of their agencies assisted the Hamas attack on the 7th October!

Yet to be proven 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-22/israel-yet-to-offer-proof-un-staff-in-gaza-have-ties-to-hamas

Quite ironic to say don't trust Hamas. Then blindly believe every word that the other set of war criminals comes out with.

[London Wanderer]

7 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

Was it independent investigators who gave you the ‘two classrooms full of children’ info?

Not really

I just spend a bit more time reading the full details 

The displaced children that were killed were using the school as a war shelter. They weren't sitting down doing their daily Arabic lessons. 

Apologies for the initial misunderstanding. This of course makes it all okay and is just the evidence we need to prove that the figures are all lies. 

[little whitt]

19 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Horrific. And the Chechen wars particularly so given Russia's love for scorched earth. 

Maybe you're right. Maybe I'm just being naive and this is just the nature of war in general.

You're right about modern weaponry - the speed at which some of the missiles strike doesn't even look real when you see the footage. They come in unfathomably quickly. 

I'm now onto an evening of reading about civilian deaths in war & which is a bit grim for a Thursday night. 

Just come across the following graphic which has some sobering statistics about WW2. Imagine that war being fought now? 😬

 

Who Killed all the 

China Men

[kent_white]

1 minute ago, little whitt said:

Who Killed all the 

China Men

The Japanese I think?

[London Wanderer]

6 hours ago, royal white said:

 

B ) Probably the best idea but would depend massively on the numbers you are fighting and area. Either way it’s likely to require some heavy bombing before hand 

 

Some good points. 

That's what I've heard in terms of better alternatives. And why they've faced a lot of criticism and evidenced accusations of war crimes. It seems the AI system they have been using is brutal and has been targeting non military Hamas members. Often wiping out innocent people for the sake of a low level ranking Hamas member. This is a new tactic for Israel to kill so many innocents for people who weren't necessarily responsible for Oct 7th.

Then you've got the problem that the original questions ignore that Israel were widely targeting innocents before and after Oct 7th. Alongside taking hostages with no charge or legal aid. Unless they are willing to return some of the land they have taken, and the innocent prisoners, then it's pointless to claim this is Israel vs the Baddies.

Edited June 13, 2024 by London Wanderer

[bolty58]

6 hours ago, Winchester White said:

 

History won't be kind on Netanyahu or unfortunately Israel after this.

 

Neither will give a fuck and rightly so. Preventing another October 7th is paramount.

[bolty58]

4 hours ago, BobyBrno said:

Was it independent investigators who gave you the ‘two classrooms full of children’ info?

....or the Israeli hospital missile strike which turned out to be from one of their own terrorist groups?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

9 hours ago, bolty58 said:

Neither will give a fuck and rightly so. Preventing another October 7th is paramount.

I would have thought it depends upon who writes the history.

If they do manage to crush Hamas such that it never becomes more than a small protest group, maybe under another name, then it may be seen as a great military campaign just as crushing Nazism was.

[London Wanderer]

Surely nobody is deluded enough to think that Israel’s current actions will prevent future armed resistance?

[Casino]

7 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Surely nobody is deluded enough to think that Israel’s current actions will prevent future armed resistance?

Youve not read some of the shite the 3 stooges post on here, have you?

[London Wanderer]

13 minutes ago, Casino said:

Youve not read some of the shite the 3 stooges post on here, have you?

Course not 😉

[bolty58]

27 minutes ago, Casino said:

Youve not read some of the shite the 3 stooges post on here, have you?

You, London and Zico? Read it all and you are right about shite.

[jayjayoghani]

15 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Surely nobody is deluded enough to think that Israel’s current actions will prevent future armed resistance?

 

Edited June 15, 2024 by jayjayoghani

[jayjayoghani]

Link if anyone interested from 55:15. Thoughts of ex MI5 and MI6 chiefs on Gaza and Israel. Plus the quote from the previous tweet.