Take Over

[Sluffy]

35 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Depends who owns the hotel as the injunction now rests on ICI? Sluffy will advise 

Sorry, I've been out all evening and just sat down to read the thread.

Bassini thought he bought the shares of Burnden Leisure (from ICI Ltd) pre Administration, so which Administrator is working for which creditor is not a factor in the injunction, the relevancy is what was the position of the SPA Anderson and Bassini at the time (if the judge rules one in fact was created).

Bolton Whites Hotel and Bolton Wanderers Football and Athletic Club are arms of Burnden Leisure and as such if Bassini bought the BL shares he became at that moment the owner of the hotel and club.

The injunction issued and served on Appleton (erroneously  as it turned out) was intended to prevent a sale of the club.

I wasn't absolutely sure what Bassini was saying he had bought from Anderson (maybe he was trying to buy BWFAC only?) but once it became clear it was his share ownership of BL, then the logic must follow that the injunction was also placed on the hotel Administrators also - although they have not made comment on that themselves - as the hotel is part of BL.

As we know the injunction preventing a sale was removed from Burnden Leisure by the judge to allow a sale to progress but Benny has since indicated that there was something in the wind about Bassini seeking an injunction against the respective Administrators companies to continue to a sale, which again has not been made public (if such was been considered) but again would have meant both Administrators making absolutely certain of their legal position before proceeding further towards any sale.

Fwiw I did predict that if I was advising either of the Administrators that I would wait until the written copy of the judges statement was in my possession before doing anything (which will probably be the middle of the coming week) and that as the next court hearing is as close as the 2nd September to wait a further few more days just in case the court makes a judgement between Bassini and Anderson.

I don't have much confidence it will, these things tend to drag on but you never know and from the middle of the coming week to the 2nd September is only another week later and it is better to work in complete certainty of the situation (if that happened) rather than not.

Hence why it comes as no surprise to me that the hotel Administrator is talking about a further two weeks before he can arrive at any decision.

From Bassini's position he believes he's bought the shares that entitles him to the club and the hotel.

As we know only too well part of Burnden Leisure (BWFAC) is insolvent and has been deemed to be not worth saving by the Administrator "without a substantial injection of working capital" (Section 5.2 of the Administrators report).  So they have properly acted to sell the club (BWFC) from the company, then liquidate the company.

Sale of assets are allowed in Administration if it is beneficial to the secured creditors of that company - and that is why the judge has allowed the sales to proceed by removing the injunction.

The question arises though, what if Bassini proves he had bought the club pre-Administration and he has got the "substantial injection of working capital" available to prevent the need for a sale of the club or indeed the compulsory liquidation of BWFAC planned for after the sale of the club?

The hotel's situation is somewhat different in that it is a going concern but it is insolvent at this moment in time and needs rescuing by a sale - but again if Bassini has bought the shares and has the required working capital then again there would not be any requirement of the Administrators making the sale.

I think it safe to say it is far better for everyone to hold off on everything until at least the 2nd September and see what if anything that day brings.

However if you look at it from the footballing side, FV would not wish to progress and invest any more cash further until the position has clarity.  Certainly the hotel will not be being sold for the next two weeks at least, to anyone.

The EFL would be stuck between the Devil and the deep blue sea - do they allow the club to play further games hoping all will be resolved favourably for FV, or do they start postponing matches like they are doing to Bury?  Certainly I can't imagine players will be joining before the transfer deadline date.

What if FV walks away, who funds the continuing Administration with no potential owner if Bassini loses his case?

What happens to the clubs golden share to be able to play in the league?

What happens if EDT and/or PBP are paid up in full by Bassini?  Would EDT dismiss the Administrator and walk away.  Would PBP walk away from the hotel sale - if so would that be terminal to FV's planned purchase (I suspect it would).

My view is that has to be taken a step at the time and nothing much is going to happen until the 2nd Sept court hearing - maybe things will become clearer then?

[Sluffy]

8 hours ago, Super Bock said:

Travelodge have a long standing requirement for a hotel at Middlebrook, however they very rarely buy hotels since they refinanced, instead they prefer the leasehold model with terms of between 25-30 years with the landlord paying all fitout related costs.

I imagine it would be fairly simple for a developer/fund to acquire the hotel with a pre-let in place to Travelodge and then sell it on for a reasonable profit.

Travelodge will typically pay around 5k-7k per room per annum in rent, but this varies depending on the demographics, local competition, parking and overall quality of the hotel.

The more rooms they acquire the more they can pay in rent as they benefit from economies of scale on their day to day running costs.

The only other hotel operator that accepts leasehold terms is Premier Inn (Whitbread) and they are already on Middlebrook. So I actually think the hotel could become a Travelodge.

Thanks mate, very interesting and informative.

Seems a hotel of some sorts is key to the whatever ends up happening, whether it be the club and hotel remain as they are and the car park/s developed, or the whole stadium is demolished and new build replacing it.

Funny how lightening seems to be striking twice, first we sell of half the ground to a supermarket to survive, now it looks as though we have to do a deal on a hotel to survive.

Why always us!

Hopefully we will be laughing at all this in a few years time!

[Sluffy]

8 hours ago, TrickyTrotter said:

My preferred sunday reading is The Caterer not Wikipedia🥺

https://www.thecaterer.com/articles/554079/bigger-and-better-peter-gowers-on-travelodges-unstoppable-growth

 

Thanks mate.

I wasn't being flippant, I often use wiki as a starting point for research.

I do however tend to check its accuracy though before accepting it as gospel.

Link below - note the info panel on the right of the page giving details of the owners -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelodge_UK

[Sluffy]

8 hours ago, Benny The Ball said:

He says Much of the Mistrust not all of it so you can include the administrators 

He is factually wrong to Include Michael James personally as its PBB that are the secured creditor 

The only person walking away unscathed and unmentioned is Brett Warburton  

I think all he is highlighting is that having 2 administrators who have fought their own vested interests on behalf of the creditors that appointed them ( KA and ED trustees )  was flawed from the outset , and , rather than working  together for the good of the football club, they have  worked against each other and  it is the football club that as a consequence has suffered and continues to suffer 

If FV walk away it wont be because of something  Marc Iles did or did not say 

No I wasn't suggesting they would but he's certainly not endearing himself to EDT, FV, Michael James or PBP if one or more of them end up playing a major part in the survival of the club, by linking them to greed and mistrust.

Wouldn't it have been better if he either said what he meant or kept his own counsel, rather than post smears and innuendos particularly without providing proof or examples as to why he has? 

[Sluffy]

1 hour ago, Hoppy510 said:

You are so clever!

No really, you're wasted on here spending all your time doing all those hours of research even if it's only to agree with me seven hours later that Endell exists in other forms and that Swift are involved in loads of companies. Your commitment to finding fault with anything that implies you are anything other than right all the time is exemplary, even if that implication is just in your head.

I couldn't do that. I could only manage 90 seconds of research to find out that Endell exists in other forms .

Honestly, if I had no life and happened to be a pedantic wanker, I'd love to be like you when I grow up. You're a shining example to pedantic wankers everywhere. Thank you.

You're a complete and utter nutjob and nasty with it too.

This what you posted -

10 hours ago, Hoppy510 said:

The dissolved "Endell Group" involved an organisation called Swift Incorporations Ltd - who are also active in...

Endell Developments Ltd

Endell Properties Ltd

and Endell Real Estate Ltd

..all of whom are still going concerns - technically.

They all file as small companies and each is linked to a network of other small and dissolved companies.

At first glance they look like vehicle companies as there's little trading activity and next to bugger all dosh.

You talk about three, just about going, companies with next to bugger all dosh and linked with one specific company.

A quick two minute look shows that specific company is linked to a further 1,685 others and one of the companies with "bugger all dosh" having assets of all but seventeen hundred million pounds (£1,659.8 million).

I also did this within minutes of your post - I've no idea why you thought it was seven hours later???

I suppose if you're going to make a fool of yourself you might as well go big about it - but it really takes some doing to be wide of the mark by seventeen hundred million pounds!

Well done that must be some sort of a record I would imagine!

[Danny G]

Dupe 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Danny G

[bwfcfan5]

6 hours ago, Damocles said:

Just to reassure, the sale of the hotel to the Boohoo lot would reduce the capital requirements to acquire the club. This may well open the door to new buyers, especially when the assets can be leveraged still. 

Administrators wanted proof of funding to £28M previously.

This makes no sense. The cost of paying off club creditors is unchanged on the club side. The cost of running the club is unchanged except you have lost a profit making part of the business to offset against club losses.

Additionally you own what 90% of a football ground and have no catering facilities of your own.  Which makes sale of said ground far more difficult. Only way anyone can benefit from buying it is if they charge a high rents back to the club. Which increases the cost base of running the football club if that is the plan.

The high cost of buying a league on club and running it are the barriers. Losing commercial potential does not in any way help. 

[MickyD]

7 hours ago, Breightmet Boy said:

There’s a professional football ground in the BL area currently doing fuck all, perhaps we could utilise that, after all, there’s not a big daft hotel to piss people off and it’ll take very little staff to run it, should they decide to knock our ground down of course.   

Maybe they could build a stadium between the two. Say where the former Harwood Open Golf Course used to be. Far enough from our house so we don't attract the car parking hassle but close enough to walk.

[Chris Custodiet]

5 hours ago, Sluffy said:

No I wasn't suggesting they would but he's certainly not endearing himself to EDT, FV, Michael James or PBP if one or more of them end up playing a major part in the survival of the club, by linking them to greed and mistrust.

Wouldn't it have been better if he either said what he meant or kept his own counsel, rather than post smears and innuendos particularly without providing proof or examples as to why he has? 

I'm afraid, Sluffy, that Iles can't help himself. Its in his DNA and its not going to change whoever, if anyone, ends up taking over BWFC.

I've  already lived longer than Garty and Eddie, but if I wanted to foreshorten the rest of my life and live it tormented by anxiety, stress and frustration whilst being the  24/7 target of abuse by nutjobs and fruitcakes fostered and fortified on a daily basis by some slap-headed malcontent writing in the local rag, I'd buy BWFC.

As for Hoppy, you are right about him too. I thought I saw a grain of commonsense in a recent contribution, but it was just a grain, it seems.

[Tombwfc]

I can't believe the hotel is worth enough to offset the bad press that'd come from killing a club the size of ours. Nor do I see a world where the stadium comes down.

Iles talked about there being a lot of finger pointing going on last week, and both admins are seemimgly pointing the finger at FV.

 

[Benny The Ball]

10 hours ago, Escobarp said:

we Are in huge trouble based on that sadly. Not sure what the legal claim actually is as it’s not the injunction so it’s a mystery 

I hope I’m wrong but I just can’t see a happy ending to this now

i did say earlier two weeks but that was something I heard on the grapevine just didn’t realise the hotel was going to take two weeks. 

‘Also read into that that whilst two s&p agreements have been issued I believe that is saying that fv need to increase payment to the creditors to match the  kamini bid. They are doing everything to sell to FV basically. To try and save the club 

FV need to come out very soon and make a statement. They have acted appallingly here for me and are now playing about with the life of our club 

 

10 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I think FV bid is seriously in danger, what is boo hoo plan? Is the stadium and hotel flattened and the subsequent land worth more than the purchase price of club and hotel? 

 

10 hours ago, Escobarp said:

In a liquidation yes land is very valuable as you don’t need to deal with football Creditors in full etc they become unsecured and dealt with pari passu like the rest 

to me boohoo have zero interest in the hotel business. It’s whats around it. But we all know this. 

Million dollar question is how much extra do FV need to match the boohoo bid? That’s the critical figure. 

 

8 hours ago, Damocles said:

I think they are able to take emotion out of the transaction, yes. 

I also think if FV withdraw then there will be another buyer, eventually, the administrators will find the means to support until such a point. 

Removing the hotel from the mix actually makes the club a far clearer transaction as the PBP/MJ link just muddies the waters.

Removing the hotel means a bidder could sell and lease back the stadium and all but clear the debts (to EFL requirements). Sound familiar?

I think in light of last nights statement it is important to keep in mind which of the protagonists stands to lose the most - and how they are most likely to react . 

Lets assume the worst case scenario where Boohoo acquire the Hotel and are not Interested in the Football Club,  and as a consequence  FV cannot buy the football club on its own , as they needed the hotel to as part of their business model to raise the necessary funding to move forward 

So this morning Keir Gordon of Charles Russell Speechlys ( AKA Eddie Davies  Trustee AKA Fildraw AKA Moonshift ) has a difficult decision to contemplate 

If we as supporters face potentially  losing our football club he faces potentially his client losing rather a lot of money as his security is on the stadium and land ( and not the hotel ) and in a liquidation scenario its worth far less than the charge he has outstanding on it. 

So what will he do ?

Does he support FV and agree to help them acquire the Hotel so they can complete on the deal by somehow agreeing to accept a lesser amount than is actually due going forward ( ie something is better than nothing )  ?  Perhaps FV could find the money if they had to - but maybe this scenario plays into their hands ?

Does he move on from FV and  talk to Bassini and try to do a deal with him so that Bassini gets the club and his client gets paid out in full ? or Could there be another interested party out there that he can talk to ? 

Does he do nothing and let matters run their course ? With the possibility that on his watch Eddie Davies trust let Eddies beloved BWFC die ?  

Those to my mind are the options he faces and where I think the decisions will be made that will or wont save BWFC 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Benny The Ball

[bwfcfan5]

1 minute ago, Benny The Ball said:

 

 

 

I think in light of last nights statement it is important to keep in mind which of the protagonists stands to lose the most - and how they are most likely to react . 

Lets assume the worst case scenario where Boohoo acquire the Hotel and are not Interested in the Football Club,  and as a consequence  FV cannot buy the football club on its own , as they needed the hotel to as part of their business model to raise the necessary funding to move forward 

So this morning Keir Gordon of Charles Russell Speechlys ( AKA Eddie Davies  Trustee AKA Fildraw AKA Moonshift ) has a difficult decision to contemplate 

If we as supporters face potentially  losing our football club he faces potentially his client losing rather a lot of money as his security is on the stadium and land ( and not the hotel ) and in a liquidation scenario its worth far less than the charge he has outstanding on it. 

So what will he do ?

Does he support FV and agree to help them acquire the Hotel so they can complete on the deal by somehow agreeing to accept a lesser amount than is actually due going forward ( ie something is better than nothing )  ?  Perhaps FV could find the money if they had to - but maybe this scenario plays into their hands ?

Does he move on from FV and  talk to Bassini and try to do a deal with him so that Bassini gets the club and his client gets paid out in full ? or Could there be another interested party out there that he can talk to ? 

Does he do nothing and let matters run their course ? With the possibility that on his watch Eddie Davies trust let Eddies beloved BWFC die ?  

Those to my mind are the options he faces and where I think the decisions will be made that will or wont save BWFC 

I think this is spot on. Its clear that the EDT aren't happy with the FV club proposal. So are they trying to engineer something else via the backdoor? And if FV walk - what would EDT do? They cannot one assumes prop the club up financially but would they really be prepared to let it go and see ED's legacy in tatters? I can't help but feel this is a high stakes game of poker and its up to who blinks first. 

[bwfcfan5]

12 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

I can't believe the hotel is worth enough to offset the bad press that'd come from killing a club the size of ours. Nor do I see a world where the stadium comes down.

Iles talked about there being a lot of finger pointing going on last week, and both admins are seemimgly pointing the finger at FV.

 

Hang on - who do you see funding the club in the interim? FV have been paying wages and paying costs to allow games to take place. If they walk away the club as far as we know is done for. Unless there is some secret buyer lurking - who genuinely can prove funds to admins and EFL satisfaction - I struggle to see how the club will survive. FV are offering staggered loan repayments which seems to be the issue - but I'm guessing that short of someone with bags of cash (and that someone has to be able to prove it to the EFL's satisfaction) rocking up - any deal will be structured in a similar way. 

The hotel clearly allows you to offset some of the club's losses. Remember that buying BWFC is signing up to a commitment to feed in your own money on an annual basis. Its not much of a business proposition. 

[Escobarp]

7 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Hang on - who do you see funding the club in the interim? FV have been paying wages and paying costs to allow games to take place. If they walk away the club as far as we know is done for. Unless there is some secret buyer lurking - who genuinely can prove funds to admins and EFL satisfaction - I struggle to see how the club will survive. FV are offering staggered loan repayments which seems to be the issue - but I'm guessing that short of someone with bags of cash (and that someone has to be able to prove it to the EFL's satisfaction) rocking up - any deal will be structured in a similar way. 

The hotel clearly allows you to offset some of the club's losses. Remember that buying BWFC is signing up to a commitment to feed in your own money on an annual basis. Its not much of a business proposition. 

FV have been underwriting games in case of losses which we don’t know the extent of. Admins wouldn’t and couldn’t fund cash flow losses for any games so FV offered to underwrite them. We dont know if any cash has thus transferred hands. Costs relate solely to the operational costs of the fixture and from playing side it’s appearance bonus etc. As whether the game is played or not other costs like whales still stand. I doubt any losses have been incurred in putting the cov game on and the away costs have been travel accom etc so I don’t think huge numbers 

[bwfcfan5]

4 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

FV have been underwriting games in case of losses which we don’t know the extent of. Admins wouldn’t and couldn’t fund cash flow losses for any games so FV offered to underwrite them. We dont know if any cash has thus transferred hands. Costs relate solely to the operational costs of the fixture and from playing side it’s appearance bonus etc. As whether the game is played or not other costs like whales still stand. I doubt any losses have been incurred in putting the cov game on and the away costs have been travel accom etc so I don’t think huge numbers 

The Coventry game needed a number of people to be paid. I think you are correct about future fixtures but the reason for the Coventry ticket delays was FV were being asked to pay off a number of bills beforehand - and I imagine were fairly reluctant to do so. 

The Wycombe game needed FV to pay some wages too. You might be right - in that we could self sustain in this current state - I have my doubts though. 

[Escobarp]

5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The Coventry game needed a number of people to be paid. I think you are correct about future fixtures but the reason for the Coventry ticket delays was FV were being asked to pay off a number of bills beforehand - and I imagine were fairly reluctant to do so. 

The Wycombe game needed FV to pay some wages too. You might be right - in that we could self sustain in this current state - I have my doubts though. 

I don’t think we could self sustain. Im saying all normal costs of the club are being supposedly honoured by the admins. That’s their job. Only additional costs incurred hosting a match FV were underwriting. But agree the well is empty and somebody is propping this up but  my understanding is EDT are funding the admin not FV, outside of the mythical £1m and underwriting games 

[Damocles]

40 minutes ago, Benny The Ball said:

 

 

 

I think in light of last nights statement it is important to keep in mind which of the protagonists stands to lose the most - and how they are most likely to react . 

Lets assume the worst case scenario where Boohoo acquire the Hotel and are not Interested in the Football Club,  and as a consequence  FV cannot buy the football club on its own , as they needed the hotel to as part of their business model to raise the necessary funding to move forward 

So this morning Keir Gordon of Charles Russell Speechlys ( AKA Eddie Davies  Trustee AKA Fildraw AKA Moonshift ) has a difficult decision to contemplate 

If we as supporters face potentially  losing our football club he faces potentially his client losing rather a lot of money as his security is on the stadium and land ( and not the hotel ) and in a liquidation scenario its worth far less than the charge he has outstanding on it. 

So what will he do ?

Does he support FV and agree to help them acquire the Hotel so they can complete on the deal by somehow agreeing to accept a lesser amount than is actually due going forward ( ie something is better than nothing )  ?  Perhaps FV could find the money if they had to - but maybe this scenario plays into their hands ?

Does he move on from FV and  talk to Bassini and try to do a deal with him so that Bassini gets the club and his client gets paid out in full ? or Could there be another interested party out there that he can talk to ? 

Does he do nothing and let matters run their course ? With the possibility that on his watch Eddie Davies trust let Eddies beloved BWFC die ?  

Those to my mind are the options he faces and where I think the decisions will be made that will or wont save BWFC 

 

They could choose to fund administration whilst a new buyer is sought too.

[bwfcfan5]

8 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I don’t think we could self sustain. Im saying all normal costs of the club are being supposedly honoured by the admins. That’s their job. Only additional costs incurred hosting a match FV were underwriting. But agree the well is empty and somebody is propping this up but  my understanding is EDT are funding the admin not FV, outside of the mythical £1m and underwriting games 

EDT are able to fund the running of the club as the appointed the administrators. But have absolutely no desire to do so. I'm unconvinced a Trust would even be able to do so easily given the rules they are bound by. 

FV have definitely been dipping in to fund. I suspect not for much if any longer. 

[bwfcfan5]

2 minutes ago, Damocles said:

They could choose to fund administration whilst a new buyer is sought too.

I think that is highly, highly unlikely. They are hell bent on recovering their debt not adding to it. 

I'd also question what the rules the trustees are acting under - I very much doubt they have scope to fund a club in administration given their recent behavior.

[Damocles]

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I think that is highly, highly unlikely. They are hell bent on recovering their debt not adding to it. 

I'd also question what the rules the trustees are acting under - I very much doubt they have scope to fund a club in administration given their recent behavior.

But as @Benny The Ball says, in liquidation they stand to lose everything. The net cost at present must be relatively low as most costs are attributed to wages.

[Ani]

So in summary. No one knows what this means and what will happen next. 

[MalcolmW]

20 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I think that is highly, highly unlikely. They are hell bent on recovering their debt not adding to it. 

I'd also question what the rules the trustees are acting under - I very much doubt they have scope to fund a club in administration given their recent behavior.

Surely the EDT will act in the interests of their beneficiaries. EDT is not ED.

Any extra money which FV bid for the hotel reduces the amount available for football spending.

 

[Escobarp]

Just now, Ani said:

So in summary. No one knows what this means and what will happen next. 

Other than if we dont have a buyer willing to step up in the next two weeks and chuck cash at it we are bust and goners. 

[Mounts Kipper]

I don’t understand why boo hoo interested in the hotel as a stand alone business, it seems a back door to owning everything lock stock and barrel, the conundrum is what they do with it if they get it. 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[bwfcfan5]

8 minutes ago, MalcolmW said:

Surely the EDT will act in the interests of their beneficiaries. EDT is not ED.

Any extra money which FV bid for the hotel reduces the amount available for football spending.

 

EDT also want their loan back - either via Ken or via the club. There is a lot of disputes so I'm told.