@gonzo made a comment on other thread about us now and then. So compare Papa Johns team v yesterday, I know we might have injuries now but the comparison is scary. Fair to say we were better at loans then 

Keeper then Trafford now Baxter massive drop in quality and attitude. 

Centre halves then - prime santos ( think he did his calf climbing them steps ) Toal pre injury (just !) and Jones only survivor 

Now - Johnston, Firino and Jones - all 3 are imo lesser players than we had then. Jones is half the player he was

wing backs then Bradley and Declan John. Now JDC and Murphy. Bradley impossible act to follow, Murphy is just struggling so DJ was a better player imo

Midfield then - Sheehan Morley and Dempsey. Now Matete, Sharples Ahmed and Legohead. Clearly hit by injuries now as 3 were missing yesterday 

upfront Collins and Big Dave - Then Kachunga and Dion. Collins might be the only one I would take from yesterday although Kachunga had a great game at Wembley. No disrespect to big Dave but he is still a kid . 
 

IMO we are weaker in 10 out of 11 positions in 18 months. Hampered by injury and the team then was boosted by 2 exceptional loan signings but the overall drop off is shocking. 

10 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

Yes.

but two years ago he completed his first full season and got 21 goals (16 league)

whilst one year ago he completed his second full season and got 20 goals (14 league)

much of his problems started off the field and his head went

not sure when the system broke

but he was doing just fine 2 years ago

5 minutes ago, Zico said:

but two years ago he completed his first full season and got 21 goals (16 league)

whilst one year ago he completed his second full season and got 20 goals (14 league)

much of his problems started off the field and his head went

not sure when the system broke

but he was doing just fine 2 years ago

Read the first comment again. 

2 seasons ago, not years tbf, including the current one. So the 23/24 season for 100% iron clarity. 

I made the comments questioning our system feeding him goals before our system broke, otherwise i wouldnt have needed to question it, because it would have been self evident.

 

Edited April 22, 20251 yr by Zog1

44 minutes ago, thebells said:

Something possibly has gone on. I don't think we should underestimate the impact of those injuries. 6 first teamers out and a handful of periphery players. SS has had nothing on the bench and no pressure on those starting games.

Beyond that, i'd guess some have got the sense they aren't an SS player so aren't overly exerting and some can see the season fizzling and want to protect their bodies ahead of new deals at clubs / returning to parent clubs. Like much of our season, it's been a bit of a perfect storm.

Evatt deserved a crack at it this season, but I'll never get my head around that weird diamond thing he came up with in pre season. 

This is the one bit I don't agree with. He had 3 seasons to go for it and as tombwfc says, teams have shelf lives.

It wasn't as if the problems started with the Oxford defeat. We'd been in poor form since the end of Jan.

Add in Evatt's mental state and it was obvious it wasn't going to work this season pretty much straight away.

Anyway back to the subject of decline, I think you can take it a year earlier. Last game of our first season back in league 1. Which squad are you picking?

All that money later and it's not straightforward:

 

5 minutes ago, Stig said:

Anyway back to the subject of decline, I think you can take it a year earlier. Last game of our first season back in league 1. Which squad are you picking?

All that money later and it's not straightforward:

 

I'm picking that one. 

I do think we have some decent players but an incredibly unbalanced squad.

 

SS commented in the week that we have no young lads or old heads in the squad. He bought a couple in but let’s be honest that was a pretty desperate act.

Maybe the most recent event we take hope from is how in League we signed MJ Williams , K Lee and Dapo in Jan. which gave us the experience we needed (and are currently lacking). It might not be headline signings we need we will benefit massively by having a couple of good old pros in the team IMO. 
 

If we can get another Dapo at same time that would be nice !! 

I'd even have baptiste ahead of some em this season.

1 minute ago, Ani said:

I do think we have some decent players but an incredibly unbalanced squad.

 

SS commented in the week that we have no young lads or old heads in the squad. He bought a couple in but let’s be honest that was a pretty desperate act.

Maybe the most recent event we take hope from is how in League we signed MJ Williams , K Lee and Dapo in Jan. which gave us the experience we needed (and are currently lacking). It might not be headline signings we need we will benefit massively by having a couple of good old pros in the team IMO. 
 

If we can get another Dapo at same time that would be nice !! 

We don't seem to have any players that compliment one another. No players that work well as a partnership.

I'd initially like to see us sign two solid full backs and a decent target man.
Play a back four of these two new full backs and two of Forino/Toal/Forrester & Johnston.
Schon & Tutu as more of wingers than defenders and two from Dempsey/Morley/Randall/Sheehan in the middle.
Collins & target man up front.

Of the four CBs, I'm most worried about Johnston, as his head seems to have gone.

One more point then I’ll check out for the evening. I recall the game at Huddersfield when Forrester, Johnstone, Southwood and one or two others were ‘celebrating’ clearances, tackles, etc. As fans we love stuff like this. And it’s infectious for players.
 

Can’t help but feel Forrester is a big part of that. Point being that the fight can return to this squad with a small number of additions. We need those Forresters to lead the way. Forino, Thomason, Johnstone are all the ‘types’ who can rally others in the right environment. They need to be given the freedom from SS to express themselves this way. And we need 2 or 3 more who will quickly buy into the club and lead the way in this regard. 

13 minutes ago, Traf said:

I'd initially like to see us sign two solid full backs and a decent target man.
Play a back four of these two new full backs and two of Forino/Toal/Forrester & Johnston.
Schon & Tutu as more of wingers than defenders and two from Dempsey/Morley/Randall/Sheehan in the middle.
Collins & target man up front.

Of the four CBs, I'm most worried about Johnston, as his head seems to have gone.

Sorry, forgot about GT. Add him to my midfield possibles.

Major squad surgery isn't necessarily the way forward.
A shift in style, tactics, formation, mentality etc would do the trick with a few carefully chosen acquisitions.

Johnston was immense for a few games when Evett went, seems to have completely dropped off form recently.

20 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

Johnston was immense for a few games when Evett went, seems to have completely dropped off form recently.

You could say that about the lot of them 

Even SS and his in game management though admittedly his options have been dwindling 

2 hours ago, thebells said:

One more point then I’ll check out for the evening. I recall the game at Huddersfield when Forrester, Johnstone, Southwood and one or two others were ‘celebrating’ clearances, tackles, etc. As fans we love stuff like this. And it’s infectious for players.
 

Can’t help but feel Forrester is a big part of that. Point being that the fight can return to this squad with a small number of additions. We need those Forresters to lead the way. Forino, Thomason, Johnstone are all the ‘types’ who can rally others in the right environment. They need to be given the freedom from SS to express themselves this way. And we need 2 or 3 more who will quickly buy into the club and lead the way in this regard. 

The Huddersfield game the players weren’t given much freedom but the opposite Darby went with a game plan of sitting back  10 men behind the ball and hit them on the brake and it worked

. It’s something that we should  look at for next season with additional pace and a target man and get away from the idea that we have to have 80 percent of the possession away from home 

5 hours ago, thebells said:

One more point then I’ll check out for the evening. I recall the game at Huddersfield when Forrester, Johnstone, Southwood and one or two others were ‘celebrating’ clearances, tackles, etc. As fans we love stuff like this. And it’s infectious for players.
 

Can’t help but feel Forrester is a big part of that. Point being that the fight can return to this squad with a small number of additions. We need those Forresters to lead the way. Forino, Thomason, Johnstone are all the ‘types’ who can rally others in the right environment. They need to be given the freedom from SS to express themselves this way. And we need 2 or 3 more who will quickly buy into the club and lead the way in this regard. 

I reckon all four of Forrester, Forino, Toal and Johnston would be at least ok if played in pairs with two good full backs at their side who are strong, tall, physical and defend first, attack second (but do that fairly well). 

Johnston, to be fair, is entitled to be tiring after playing a full season on the back of a full one off. With a summer's rest he might come back fresher. 

31 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

I reckon all four of Forrester, Forino, Toal and Johnston would be at least ok if played in pairs with two good full backs at their side who are strong, tall, physical and defend first, attack second (but do that fairly well). 

Johnston, to be fair, is entitled to be tiring after playing a full season on the back of a full one off. With a summer's rest he might come back fresher. 

Nobody has played more league minutes for us than Johnston this season.

For the people arguing set fire to the club, just before Rioch took over we finished 13th in Div 3.

He didn't sign that many players to get promotion. From memory, Branagan, McGinlay, Lee. 

 

Rioch came to a squad that had Andy Walker, Alan Stubbs and Jason McAteer in it.Schumacher is discovering Evatt hasn't left a 30 goal a season striker and two PL standard youngsters

4 hours ago, jayjayoghani said:

For the people arguing set fire to the club, just before Rioch took over we finished 13th in Div 3.

He didn't sign that many players to get promotion. From memory, Branagan, McGinlay, Lee. 

 

A keeper, a goal scorer and some pace out wide. 
 

Add in a midfielder like McAteer and you have covered what we probably need now. Rioch often talked about the character of players he signed which again is where we are lacking. 

Despite the many truths in this thread.

What a depressing title! 

It’s not going to do me much good seeing that everyday up till August 2nd. 😂

I’m going with the mindset that this decline, with a few key signings (and a manager who can be flexible, adaptable, bringing the best out of the squad he has), can be addressed, arrested, turned around, to get us back in promotion contention.

 

53 minutes ago, desperado said:

Despite the many truths in this thread.

What a depressing title! 

It’s not going to do me much good seeing that everyday up till August 2nd. 😂

I’m going with the mindset that this decline, with a few key signings (and a manager who can be flexible, adaptable, bringing the best out of the squad he has), can be addressed, arrested, turned around, to get us back in promotion contention.

 

I’m absolutely done with the shower of shit…

But I still genuinely think we’ll win the league next season 😂

The required optimistic mind of a Bolton fan.

53 minutes ago, desperado said:

Despite the many truths in this thread.

What a depressing title! 

It’s not going to do me much good seeing that everyday up till August 2nd. 😂

I’m going with the mindset that this decline, with a few key signings (and a manager who can be flexible, adaptable, bringing the best out of the squad he has), can be addressed, arrested, turned around, to get us back in promotion contention.

 

Definitely, but it needs a change in approach to recruitment. The last couple of years has seen us change tac from getting players with some experience of playing at a higher level, to trying to hoover up the best players from lower league clubs solely.

We need a bit of balance of some experienced pros.

And we need to be looking at mentality of the players we bring in in general. I'm not keen on the data led stuff from ludonautics at our level.

On the positive side we've got a complete fresh start with Markham leaving as well, so hopefully between SS and Fergal they can start getting the recruitment right again.

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I’m absolutely done with the shower of shit…

But I still genuinely think we’ll win the league next season 😂

The required optimistic mind of a Bolton fan.

Same here

@jules_darbysaid yesterday that he feels more pissed off with the group now than after the play off final.

I tend to agree. 

The way they've wilted over the past few games is diabolical and muchworse than a big capitulation.

But like you I'm confident the manager and new recruitment can sort the mess out.

I just hope him, the new staff and the owners/investors are all pulling in the right direction.

We can't afford many more seasons down here, over time the player stock is falling.

 

 

12 hours ago, Winchester White said:

Johnston was immense for a few games when Evett went, seems to have completely dropped off form recently.

Johnston took charge for a few games but either he couldn’t get the rest of them fired up or the enthusiasm waned or both.

9 hours ago, ianofcleveleys said:

I reckon all four of Forrester, Forino, Toal and Johnston would be at least ok if played in pairs with two good full backs at their side who are strong, tall, physical and defend first, attack second (but do that fairly well). 

Johnston, to be fair, is entitled to be tiring after playing a full season on the back of a full one off. With a summer's rest he might come back fresher. 

Absolutely my view too. The guy looks absolutely burned out and I’m sure after a good rest over the summer he’ll come back refreshed and fighting fit again. -laying the full season after the disappointment off Wembley and call that’s gone on with Evatt has taken its toll on everybody but especially it seems Johnston.