frank_spencer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 If we'd tried to 'not get beat' against Uruguay once we'd equalised, we might have got a point. True but we went a goal down so had to change tack. The senior players need to take some responsibility the World Cup is the time they're meant to step up and lead the team. Instead we were clinging to Raheem Sterling, Danny's Wellbeck and Sturridge for hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Stat on R5 this morning: the FA have defined an "elite level" player as one who plays in the top 5 leagues for a team in the top 6 in that league who also regularly get Champions League experience, and he must play >50% of playing time. France had 45 to pick from, Spain and Germany 42 - England just 18. Because of the ridiculous premium put on English players by clubs they'll never be considered by foreign teams even if you take out the quality argument. If you took Celtic's Fraser Forster we'd be alongside Russia as the only team with totally home based players. Are there actually many English players playing abroad at a decent level? Even those that are england eligble are ignored by the FA set up until it's to late and they've already commited to their adoptive nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Casino Posted June 21, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2014 Because of the ridiculous premium put on English players by clubs they'll never be considered by foreign teams even if you take out the quality argument. If you took Celtic's Fraser Forster we'd be alongside Russia as the only team with totally home based players. Are there actually many English players playing abroad at a decent level? Even those that are england eligble are ignored by the FA set up until it's to late and they've already commited to their adoptive nation. im not sure what point youre trying to make all i can see is that there aren't clubs abroad who are willing to pay english players more than they can get in england ffs, if players in cameroon weren't playing for a bucket of water a week they'd stay at home, too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Zico Posted June 21, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2014 Stat on R5 this morning: the FA have defined an "elite level" player as one who plays in the top 5 leagues for a team in the top 6 in that league who also regularly get Champions League experience, and he must play >50% of playing time. France had 45 to pick from, Spain and Germany 42 - England just 18. Be interesting if they did something similar with managers Was thinking last night when watching how good France were that it must help to some degree to have a manager who did so much as a player and already a fair bit as a manager and he's only 45 We've not got anyone English who comes close, redknapp won the fa cup and had a season in the CL, that's it Never mind too many foreign players, none of the decent English players can be arsed going on to coach either How many who played in any england team in the 90s currently manage? There's a few who have but weren't that good, thinking Pearce and Southgate and to a degree Shearer I know good player doesn't mean you're a good coach and vice versa but still, its a bit shit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 im not sure what point youre trying to make all i can see is that there aren't clubs abroad who are willing to pay english players more than they can get in england ffs, if players in cameroon weren't playing for a bucket of water a week they'd stay at home, too But thats because they're over paid in England simply by virtue of being English. The experience of the global game is what's lacking in england players in my opinion. The only English players abroad are championship level at best, the fact there's none in any of the other top leagues suggests either they're not good enough or cost more money than their ability warrants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Never mind too many foreign players, none of the decent English players can be arsed going on to coach either How many who played in any england team in the 90s currently manage? There's a few who have but weren't that good, thinking Pearce and Southgate and to a degree Shearer I know good player doesn't mean you're a good coach and vice versa but still, its a bit shit Ince? But as you say theyve been shit. Teddy Sheringham strikes me as a person who'd make a good manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeOghani'sIroningBoard Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Teddy Sheringham would manage to nail all the players' wives just like at Forest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The more I think about it, the more I blame Roy. For an over cautious manager, he dint half play an open and risky formation....and do you know why ???? You, me and the media all moaned for it. We wanted the failed old guard gone, and in the main, that is what happened, yet as soon as this 'risky open plan' didn't work, all the same people cry for these players t come back. Madness, delusion and just stupid. I know what went wrong, and I think Roy does. But he was not strong enough to play his on way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SalfordOriginal Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 He bowed to the man in the pub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYW Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 True but we went a goal down so had to change tack. Not once did we attempt to play defensively against Italy or Uruguay, before or after we were a goal down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYW Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 We wanted the failed old guard gone, and in the main, that is what happened, yet as soon as this 'risky open plan' didn't work, all the same people cry for these players t come back. Nobody wanted Cole gone. He was one of the few success stories of past tournaments. Leaving Terry's off-field problems aside, how many wanted him gone as a player? Not many i suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYW Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Was thinking last night when watching how good France were that it must help to some degree to have a manager who did so much as a player and already a fair bit as a manager and he's only 45 We've not got anyone English who comes close, redknapp won the fa cup and had a season in the CL, that's it Maybe we should have appointed Jack Charlton when he applied for the job then. We wouldn't even have needed a midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pato Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 After Moyes no club looking at Champions League will be appointing a "inexperienced" manager meaning that foreign managers only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazzyinBolton Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Plain & simple. Sack him. He had one job, to prepare us for a World Cup & to perform there. We've played 2 big games against teams that are unlikely to be contenders (IMHO) & we haven't even managed a point & we're out. Woy is experienced but so what. We might as well have had Dougie managing the team. It's a results job & he's just fucked it. As for letting him build a squad, well that's bollocks too. We've just let him build one for this World Cup & what good was that? It's not all about building for the future, it's about doing it right now. Nothing against the guy, but he's had his chance & not taken it. Next please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYW Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The experience of the global game is what's lacking in england players in my opinion. Platt, Gascoigne, Walker, Lineker, Waddle, Hoddle, Hateley. All played abroad. All part of England teams that failed to win anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The more I think about it, the more I blame Roy. For an over cautious manager, he dint half play an open and risky formation....and do you know why ???? You, me and the media all moaned for it. We wanted the failed old guard gone, and in the main, that is what happened, yet as soon as this 'risky open plan' didn't work, all the same people cry for these players t come back. Madness, delusion and just stupid. I know what went wrong, and I think Roy does. But he was not strong enough to play his on way. And where does the assumption that it wasn't "his way" come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Cant quote for some reason. I remember loads wanting the pair of them gone, Terry and Cole. Short memories some. When we got bummed 4-1 by Germany them pair of them were embarrassing. And guess what...same story.....different names. Nothing will change till we change the approach of selecting a squad / tam to fit the formation. The Cole V Baines debate is easy. If we are to play a formation that requires attacking full backs, Baines win all day. If you want more defensive / orthodox then its Cole all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYW Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I remember loads wanting the pair of them gone, Terry and Cole. Short memories some. When we got bummed 4-1 by Germany them pair of them were embarrassing. The entire England team were embarrassing in that tournament. We might as well have got rid of them all if that Germany game was the sole criteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Same now then surely !!! Its a succession of failure, and repeating the same failures.....wanting change every time. Look at Hoddle banging on about how he would do it ffs....does he not realise he had his chance to implement these genius tactics......that had Gerrard as the ONLY central midfielder !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COYW Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Same now then surely !!! Its a succession of failure, and repeating the same failures.....wanting change every time. Not really. Plenty wanted Cole to be part of the squad. It's not a case of being wise after the event. You can have a combination of youth and experience you know, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules_darby Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 So...our inglorious failure Is it: The players aren't good enough? The wrong ones were picked? The right ones were picked but employed wrongly / wrong tactics? The right ones were picked and employed correctly but they just didn't perform on the day(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Playera are good enough, just bit used the right way. You can bet that all the players that played bad will be brilliant again as soon as the prem starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maaarsh Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Who the fuck is Wayne Rooney to offer support to the manager? Fucking arse before front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'm not of the get rid mentality and like to see managers get time, but I just don't think he's up to it he's made too many elementary mistakes in selection,formation and substitutions he's the wrong age we need a vibrant strong and innovative manager who can get a team first and foremost to defend and get players playing above themselves and at this level the only thing that matters is winning. I genuinely think we will struggle to qualify for the euros with him in charge. He was slated for doing this at the Euro's. He's tried to be more possession based and attacking and gets slated for that. Only a winning England manager can 'win', if you get my meaning!? FWIW i'm absolutely gutted we're out but can't say i'm that surprised, sadly. Many factors contribute, but I reckon the players just aren't tactically aware/good enough at that level. We currently have no real leader/organiser (Gerrard's never an international captain) or someone really world class who can dictate things. The warm up games were a warning sign to me, lots of passes but went nowhere. Saying that, Rooney could have bagged at least 4 goals and England could have won both games 2v1. He can stay for me but only because; I can't really see anyone better, I quite like the cut of his gib, and crucially, we don't currently have the players to really compete. No-one can change that. And he does seem to have a longer term plan which he has to be given time to actualise We'll piss the Euro qualifiers (in second place;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pato Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Meanwhile 'Arry is stirring it up saying he had to stop Tottenham players from dropping from England squads. Shit stirring bastard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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