barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 So, (i know its difficult at the moment with so many things in the air) PP gets the opportunity to continue, which i think is fair for the work he has done so far what do we think constitutes a solid start for him next season? ignoring the fact we could get investment which would no doubt move the goalposts in terms of aims. Say we are in a similar situation come the start of the season. Obviously a start like last season would probably see him gone but what would be acceptable to us? first 10 games? 10 - 12 points? anything less than that and i'd say we would be goners already. tough enough task doing it once (which we made unnecessarily more difficult for ourselves) but twice would be nigh on impossible Quote
Traf Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 When Allardyce was here and we'd just go into the PL and the sole target was survival, like it is right now, Sam & the chairman's plan was to break the season into chunks and approach it in blocks. I think a similar approach is needed and we need to on a minimum of 12pts after 11 games IMO. That extrapolated through the season gives us 48pts after 44 games and with 50pts virtually always enough to stay up, we should be comfortable. Last season's 2pts from 11 was wholly unacceptable. Quote
QFPants Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Correct, they targeted certain games though; can't have first 6 fixtures against relegated clubs and top 6 this season and sack him if we aren't on 10 points. I think PP has definitely earned the right to have a go next year as he's achieved his targets 2 years running.. Start as bad and I'd expect him to leave, but very harsh to pot him now (unless the Saudi or Greek warchest arrives obviously). Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) Correct, they targeted certain games though; can't have first 6 fixtures against relegated clubs and top 6 this season and sack him if we aren't on 10 points. I think PP has definitely earned the right to have a go next year as he's achieved his targets 2 years running.. Start as bad and I'd expect him to leave, but very harsh to pot him now (unless the Saudi or Greek warchest arrives obviously). thats the thing though isnt it, we had a very tough start this season hence 2 points from 11 games but i dont think we can make those allowances again. all teams have to be played so regardless of whether they are first up or 18th, there has to be a bare minimum points expectation after say 10 games and then evaluate from there. we havent the luxury of saying "well the first 10 games were tough so we'll ignore them and start from now" because the next thing is your then half way through the season and dead & buried. the opposite of that is, we exceed the targets and PP is then well within his rights to ask the board to back him in the market Edited May 14, 2018 by barrycowdrill Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Yes By what logic? Or have you just decided that? I think most rational Bolton fans felt staying up would be hugely difficult in August time. Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 So, (i know its difficult at the moment with so many things in the air) PP gets the opportunity to continue, which i think is fair for the work he has done so far what do we think constitutes a solid start for him next season? ignoring the fact we could get investment which would no doubt move the goalposts in terms of aims. Say we are in a similar situation come the start of the season. Obviously a start like last season would probably see him gone but what would be acceptable to us? first 10 games? 10 - 12 points? anything less than that and i'd say we would be goners already. tough enough task doing it once (which we made unnecessarily more difficult for ourselves) but twice would be nigh on impossible What if takeover talks rumble on all summer and as a result we go into the season with only 9 first team players registered and are picking them with the kids? I think it is so difficult to say at this stage. If our budget remains the same as this season then 7-8 points from the first 10 will be ok enough. We'll need somewhere between 40 and 50 again to survive. If we spend money then we'd want 10 minimum probably more depending upon how much is spent and how. Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) What if takeover talks rumble on all summer and as a result we go into the season with only 9 first team players registered and are picking them with the kids? I think it is so difficult to say at this stage. If our budget remains the same as this season then 7-8 points from the first 10 will be ok enough. We'll need somewhere between 40 and 50 again to survive. If we spend money then we'd want 10 minimum probably more depending upon how much is spent and how. i think as we showed this season they will cobble a team together somehow, rather than relying on a number of young lads. Yes, that would tie PP's hands behind his back and he would be well within his rights to say he did the best job he could with the tools he has been given. investment could go either way, as could the signings. which would be contributing factors in our start. either good or bad. However, i do think there needs to be a minimum expectation regardless. 10 - 12 points would be fair imo. Because i wouldnt fancy us making up the ground again if we were cut adrift its very much if buts and maybes i was just gauging what people would qualify as an acceptable start Edited May 14, 2018 by barrycowdrill Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) i think as we showed this season they will cobble a team together somehow, rather than relying on a number of young lads. Yes, that would tie PP's hands behind his back and he would be well within his rights to say he did the best job he could with the tools he has been given. investment could go either way, as could the signings. which would be contributing factors in our start. either good or bad. However, i do think there needs to be a minimum expectation regardless. 10 - 12 points would be fair imo. Because i wouldnt fancy us making up the ground again if we were cut adrift its very much if buts and maybes i was just gauging what people would qualify as an acceptable start I think this season is different in that Ken clearly is seriously working on investment. We haven't even announced a retained list yet. So who knows how long it will take for decisions to be made? Last season we went up knowing there was no serious prospect of money and were under embargo so right from the start everyone knew what we'd have to do to build a squad. Its a timing thing. We don't even know who will be manager yet. Parky is waiting to be told.... Edited May 14, 2018 by bwfcfan5 Quote
tomski Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 By what logic? Or have you just decided that? I think most rational Bolton fans felt staying up would be hugely difficult in August time.By the fact I think the team was good enough to compete and not using the embargo as an excuse. I think of myself as pretty rational when it comes to Bolton like when we sold madine, I wasn't telling the world we were doomed etc. Quote
Traf Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 thats the thing though isnt it, we had a very tough start this season hence 2 points from 11 games but i dont think we can make those allowances again. Hmmm, where do you draw the line? We won 3 of our first 22 games. 16pts from 22 games by which time we'd played everyone bar Cardiff. We'd also endured a run of 1 goal in 10 games. Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 By the fact I think the team was good enough to compete and not using the embargo as an excuse. I think of myself as pretty rational when it comes to Bolton like when we sold madine, I wasn't telling the world we were doomed etc. But surely, we finished bottom with a better team on paper than the one we came up with... Quote
tomski Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 But surely, we finished bottom with a better team on paper than the one we came up with...Thats up for debate. But we had a better team at the start of this season which is probably more relevant Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Hmmm, where do you draw the line? We won 3 of our first 22 games. 16pts from 22 games by which time we'd played everyone bar Cardiff. We'd also endured a run of 1 goal in 10 games. thats the problem isnt it id say the first 10 games, not just based on the results but performances, whether we are in the games or getting hammered (as we were in a few of our first this season) gives you a barometer of where you will end up. Quote
Zico Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) But surely, we finished bottom with a better team on paper than the one we came up with... probably best not to base your argument just on paper Edited May 14, 2018 by ZicoKelly Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Thats up for debate. But we had a better team at the start of this season which is probably more relevant Did we? You're saying that Beevers is better than Ream? Or Cullen better than Spearing? Or Wheater better than Holding? Or Pratley better than Mark Davies? I personally think its bonkers to say we had a better team on paper than what we went down with. It makes no sense at all. Given apart from Spearing (and injured Davies) the others that went are all playing further up the league ladder than their replacements who all cost nothing. Then in January we lost Madine. The squad had millions of talent taken out in Madine, Holding, Ream, Spearing (he cost us 2M) and those players replaced with freebies and loans. Taking your Bolton goggles off for a second nobody would give another team in that scenario much of a chance of doing better. I'd argue the only thing we had going for us was Parky wouldn't give up and worked his knackers off to find ways to keep us up, whereas Lennon just couldn't be bothered. That is how I see it. Quote
Ani Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Anyone who at start of season said we up stay and make £6M in player sales would have been derided. People taking the last 6 or 7 games as their reason to pot him are ignoring the middle bit when we were top half of form tables for months. You have to judge the season as a whole and the Chairman needs to avoid commenting on players effort and commitment. We have finished the season with bare bones. With no investment it really won’t matter who is manager Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 Then in January we lost Madine. I get your point about the other players but re: the above we finished where everyone wanted & expected us to finish. so the loss of him affected us in no way shape or form Quote
gonzo Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 I get your point about the other players but re: the above we finished where everyone wanted & expected us to finish. so the loss of him affected us in no way shape or form Nah we’d have made the play offs had he stayed mate. You should know this by now. (Awaits 45 page assay to confirm) Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) Nah we’d have made the play offs had he stayed mate. You should know this by now. (Awaits 45 page assay to confirm) with P27 W5 Pts 25 without P19 W4 Pts 18 but lets not let facts get in the way of an unbalanced debate Edited May 14, 2018 by barrycowdrill Quote
Guest Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 I get your point about the other players but re: the above we finished where everyone wanted & expected us to finish. so the loss of him affected us in no way shape or form The point was comparing our squad this season to that the last time we were in the championship. And looking at the significant players lost for fees. Your point sure only accentuates how good a manager Parkinson is? Quote
Whites man Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 with P27 W5 Pts 25 without P19 W4 Pts 18 but lets not let facts get in the way of an unbalanced debate You should take the games at the start of the season out of that stat. Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 (edited) The point was comparing our squad this season to that the last time we were in the championship. And looking at the significant players lost for fees. Your point sure only accentuates how good a manager Parkinson is? my point doesnt accentuate anything of the sort. it simply confirms that losing Madine had no negative impact on our season. we were 21st when he left & 21st on the final day. if anything it was a positive. Money in the bank and our ppg went up slightly. so you referencing his departure in your statement is irrelevant i dont think there is any debate about Parkinson. He's good at what he does at a certain level. Do i think he can take us much further even with investment? maybe, maybe not. Do i enjoy what i watch? certainly not Edited May 14, 2018 by barrycowdrill Quote
barrycowdrill Posted May 14, 2018 Posted May 14, 2018 You should take the games at the start of the season out of that stat. oh of course. to fit the narrative Quote
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