Are in Manchester today

Might pop down at lunchtime 

Wonder if they’ll take their plastic bottles home with them?

Door to door, by bike I'd do it in around an hour.

By bus or tram, longer by some way!

Then that's too long a commute. It's not something that's right for everybody. But with the right infrastructure for cycling, car share schemes, better public transport, we could massively reduce the amount of cars on the roads. 

We will have to be mining for cobalt somewhere in the meantime. Unless there are alternatives but I know very little about batteries. By reducing the demand though and ensuring mining companies are restoring marine ecosystems elsewere, it seems the lesser evil. 

I agree. Demand must reduce.

That also means a bit of a return to "localism", and perhaps a reduction in choice.

No issue for me, don't need a choice of half a dozen soaps or tens of shower gells, but that's not how society is geared up currently.

2 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Yeah I saw this on the news today. That extraction method doesn't look good and I can't see how they can do it without screwing the sea bed and marine life. Shows the compexity of the issue. We need an electric car revolution yet we also need to restore marine coral and kelp forests which are excellent at capturing C02. 

Could do with a revolution in greener transport such as cycling and bike path infrastructure. We will always need cars especially for people's businesses. But we could reduce car use and get millions more cycling with better infrastructure. I think a lot of folk are put off because it's so dangerous on the roads and cyclists and drivers just end up pissing each other off. Separate the two and many will choose to cycle. 

Father in law is part of a scheme in Inverness that takes elderly people to the shops and socials on trikes. They're practically as comfy as a taxi and it's been a hugely popular scheme. 

Everything we do has to be centred around reducing demand. 

‘An electric car revolution’ is not the answer to moving people around

Moderb batteries use precious metals which makes them expensive, hard to manufacture and even harder to dispose off when their short working life is over.

Batteries are hard to charge quickly and efficiently and the infrastructure needed to replace petrol stations with charging stations is IMO impossible to achieve in the time environmentalist’s are demanding 

Electric cars at the moment are a car salesman’s dream, don’t forget it’s not long ago the Government were encouraging us to buy diesel cars

Unless scientists perfect the hydrogen engine quickly we’re fucked

2 hours ago, Moon boy said:

‘An electric car revolution’ is not the answer to moving people around

Moderb batteries use precious metals which makes them expensive, hard to manufacture and even harder to dispose off when their short working life is over.

Batteries are hard to charge quickly and efficiently and the infrastructure needed to replace petrol stations with charging stations is IMO impossible to achieve in the time environmentalist’s are demanding 

Electric cars at the moment are a car salesman’s dream, don’t forget it’s not long ago the Government were encouraging us to buy diesel cars

Unless scientists perfect the hydrogen engine quickly we’re fucked

Lithium mines and projects are springing up all over the place here - many of them Chinese sponsored. All to do with Battery manufacture. Elon Musk has already installed this in SA:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-16/improved-power-security-for-sa-with-new-battery-completed/10718772

10 hours ago, Moon boy said:

‘An electric car revolution’ is not the answer to moving people around

Moderb batteries use precious metals which makes them expensive, hard to manufacture and even harder to dispose off when their short working life is over.

Batteries are hard to charge quickly and efficiently and the infrastructure needed to replace petrol stations with charging stations is IMO impossible to achieve in the time environmentalist’s are demanding 

Electric cars at the moment are a car salesman’s dream, don’t forget it’s not long ago the Government were encouraging us to buy diesel cars

Unless scientists perfect the hydrogen engine quickly we’re fucked

When batteries reach the end of their life, can the metals be readily recovered?

I would assume this requires a lot of energy, so it would need to come from renewable sources.

10 hours ago, Moon boy said:

‘An electric car revolution’ is not the answer to moving people around

Moderb batteries use precious metals which makes them expensive, hard to manufacture and even harder to dispose off when their short working life is over.

Batteries are hard to charge quickly and efficiently and the infrastructure needed to replace petrol stations with charging stations is IMO impossible to achieve in the time environmentalist’s are demanding 

Electric cars at the moment are a car salesman’s dream, don’t forget it’s not long ago the Government were encouraging us to buy diesel cars

Unless scientists perfect the hydrogen engine quickly we’re fucked

They are certainly not a long term widespread answer. But for a short term improvement they do offer significant advantages. Some of those points re precious metals hold.

The infrastructure one less so - you simply need a grant to install chargers outside people's houses. It doesn't take that many people switching to see big short term reductions in emissions. And for many many people electric cars are viable. Few actually need diesel/petrol. 

8 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

They are certainly not a long term widespread answer. But for a short term improvement they do offer significant advantages. Some of those points re precious metals hold.

The infrastructure one less so - you simply need a grant to install chargers outside people's houses. It doesn't take that many people switching to see big short term reductions in emissions. And for many many people electric cars are viable. Few actually need diesel/petrol. 

If the purpose of switching to electric vehicles is to save the world I think we will all be disappointed 

Big car manufacturers have found a growth area and are heavily marketing electric vehicles, wealthy consumers will feel they are doing their bit to save the world but the plan is massively flawed, we will end up with a massive problem to dispose off tons of environmentaly dangerous waste.

Government grants/ subsidies to improve the infrastructure will be a token gesture which might improve accessibility to charging points but IMO is money that could be better used elsewhere 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

If the purpose of switching to electric vehicles is to save the world I think we will all be disappointed 

Big car manufacturers have found a growth area and are heavily marketing electric vehicles, wealthy consumers will feel they are doing their bit to save the world but the plan is massively flawed, we will end up with a massive problem to dispose off tons of environmentaly dangerous waste.

Government grants/ subsidies to improve the infrastructure will be a token gesture which might improve accessibility to charging points but IMO is money that could be better used elsewhere 

 

 

Its not a world saver alone but no measure is - but its a way to cut out emissions in the short term - one that has lower impact on people's lives than other car emission reducing methods. 

They are "cleaner" even when taking into account the battery production etc. Certainly not perfect though as you say. But better than not...probably. 

 

13 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

If the purpose of switching to electric vehicles is to save the world I think we will all be disappointed 

Big car manufacturers have found a growth area and are heavily marketing electric vehicles, wealthy consumers will feel they are doing their bit to save the world but the plan is massively flawed, we will end up with a massive problem to dispose off tons of environmentaly dangerous waste.

Government grants/ subsidies to improve the infrastructure will be a token gesture which might improve accessibility to charging points but IMO is money that could be better used elsewhere 

 

 

Sorry but a large part of that is  absolutely incorrect. 
 

if you believe that the car manufacturers are investing into this as an opportunity to make money then in one sense yes but not in the manner in which you explain it. 
 

they believe that combustion engines will be phased out and electric vehicles both passenger and commercial goods, are the future and it is on this basis that billions of pounds are being invested into development of these products. 
 

there is a long way to go admittedly but it’s Certainly not something that is going to just phase out as a fad 

as I’ve eluded to previously there is significant work being undertaken in respect of the required infrastructure that we would need to facilitate a move to electric vehicles. This is not a token gesture by either the government or the manufacturers

 

 

6 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Sorry but a large part of that is  absolutely incorrect. 
 

if you believe that the car manufacturers are investing into this as an opportunity to make money then in one sense yes but not in the manner in which you explain it. 
 

they believe that combustion engines will be phased out and electric vehicles both passenger and commercial goods, are the future and it is on this basis that billions of pounds are being invested into development of these products. 
 

there is a long way to go admittedly but it’s Certainly not something that is going to just phase out as a fad 

as I’ve eluded to previously there is significant work being undertaken in respect of the required infrastructure that we would need to facilitate a move to electric vehicles. This is not a token gesture by either the government or the manufacturers

 

 

Indeed. There is a valid argument though that once you increase the volumes (and hence reduce the costs) that the overall environmental impact becomes similar to diesel/petrol. The thing is at a higher price point - the impact is lower - but once manufacturers start finding ways to cut costs - the impacts may go up. I genuinely believe one of the things industries and large business will have to accept if they want to reduce emissions will be lower profits. I fear the only way they will do so is being forced. 

1 hour ago, Escobarp said:

Sorry but a large part of that is  absolutely incorrect. 
 

if you believe that the car manufacturers are investing into this as an opportunity to make money then in one sense yes but not in the manner in which you explain it. 
 

they believe that combustion engines will be phased out and electric vehicles both passenger and commercial goods, are the future and it is on this basis that billions of pounds are being invested into development of these products. 
 

there is a long way to go admittedly but it’s Certainly not something that is going to just phase out as a fad 

as I’ve eluded to previously there is significant work being undertaken in respect of the required infrastructure that we would need to facilitate a move to electric vehicles. This is not a token gesture by either the government or the manufacturers

 

 

It’s not ‘absolutely incorrect’ because it’s just my opinion.

I don’t claim to be a an expert but I know a fair bit about batteries and re- chargeable batteries are limited by the physics of the  chemical reaction within the battery.

Scientists all over the world are working on the new ‘wonder batteries ‘ using new combinations of materials that are powerful, small, light weight, re-charge in minutes, have a long life, etc,  personally I don’t think that will be achievable in the next 10 years say, I suspect some better form of propulsion will come along and therefore I think we are going down the wrong path

 

46 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

It’s not ‘absolutely incorrect’ because it’s just my opinion.

I don’t claim to be a an expert but I know a fair bit about batteries and re- chargeable batteries are limited by the physics of the  chemical reaction within the battery.

Scientists all over the world are working on the new ‘wonder batteries ‘ using new combinations of materials that are powerful, small, light weight, re-charge in minutes, have a long life, etc,  personally I don’t think that will be achievable in the next 10 years say, I suspect some better form of propulsion will come along and therefore I think we are going down the wrong path

 

No it’s absolutely incorrect as their is statements in there which are factually incorrect. 
 

Having an opinion on something doesn’t make it right. Entitled to an opinion absolutely but when it is factually incorrect Then expect to be pulled up on it 

6 hours ago, Escobarp said:

No it’s absolutely incorrect as their is statements in there which are factually incorrect. 
 

Having an opinion on something doesn’t make it right. Entitled to an opinion absolutely but when it is factually incorrect Then expect to be pulled up on it 

Ok, you tease, which bits are ‘absolutely incorrect ‘

I was promised hover cars would be a thing by now

The 80’s got lots wrong.

why can’t the main men push the hydrogen cars?

they were the next big thing. James Bond had one.

7 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Ok, you tease, which bits are ‘absolutely incorrect ‘

No teasing. And not biting 

but one that is a very large cheese scale piece of bollocks is the bit around government making a token gesture re infrastructure. I can categorically inform you that isn’t true. 

13 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

No teasing. And not biting 

but one that is a very large cheese scale piece of bollocks is the bit around government making a token gesture re infrastructure. I can categorically inform you that isn’t true. 

Ok, last word from me, you said ‘statements’ ,plural, 

I’ll withdraw that factually incorrect statement, I believe the Government have recently doubled, yes doubled funding for on street electric car charging to £5m, this should add over 2000 extra charging points throughout Great Britain, the Government obviously going flat out to cater for the 1% of electric cars on the road, 

Its still my opinion that is a token gesture 

Want to point out any other ‘absolutely incorrect ‘ statement, or shall we find something else to disagree about?

30 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Ok, last word from me, you said ‘statements’ ,plural, 

I’ll withdraw that factually incorrect statement, I believe the Government have recently doubled, yes doubled funding for on street electric car charging to £5m, this should add over 2000 extra charging points throughout Great Britain, the Government obviously going flat out to cater for the 1% of electric cars on the road, 

Its still my opinion that is a token gesture 

Want to point out any other ‘absolutely incorrect ‘ statement, or shall we find something else to disagree about?

The scale is much greater than that and will be exponentially greater than that. Watch this space. 
 

‘yes. Big car manufacturers are looking to replace their existing sales which are forecast to drop off the edge of a cliff. So whilst electric vehicles will be a growth area it isn’t to add more profits it’s simply to try and stay afloat. Slightly difference from your inference. 
 

‘Also i know 7 people who have electric cars. 1 I would glass as moderately well off. The others just run of the mill and not wealthy consumers. 

‘Have a good evening 

Edited November 14, 20196 yr by Escobarp

11 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

The scale is much greater than that and will be exponentially greater than that. Watch this space. 
 

‘yes. Big car manufacturers are looking to replace their existing sales which are forecast to drop off the dave if a cliff. So whilst electric vehicles will be a growth area it isn’t to add more profits it’s simply to try and stay afloat. Slightly difference from your inference. 
 

‘Also i know 7 people who have electric cars. 1 I would glass as moderately well off. The others just run of the mill and not wealthy consumers. 

‘Have a good evening 

Thanks, you too

Climate change deniers are strange.

One lad I saw on Facebook said "why would millionaires/billionaires be buying beachfront properties and investing in them if sea levels are rising?"

Answer - they don't give a fuck about the future. Billionaires can afford to lose a few quid on a beachfront property, they are busy enough fucking the planet up to really care about what happens in 20 years. Most of their "investments" are funded by others anyway, so it rarely costs them much.

 

Bottom line, most governments (and the US once Trump is gone) are actually taking action which will force people to act responsibly anyway, so they can carry on bleating but they'll still be forced to recycle, cut emissions, toe the line. So fuck 'em.

 

3 hours ago, Spider said:

Climate change deniers are strange.

One lad I saw on Facebook said "why would millionaires/billionaires be buying beachfront properties and investing in them if sea levels are rising?"

Answer - they don't give a fuck about the future. Billionaires can afford to lose a few quid on a beachfront property, they are busy enough fucking the planet up to really care about what happens in 20 years. Most of their "investments" are funded by others anyway, so it rarely costs them much.

 

Bottom line, most governments (and the US once Trump is gone) are actually taking action which will force people to act responsibly anyway, so they can carry on bleating but they'll still be forced to recycle, cut emissions, toe the line. So fuck 'em.

 

Aye.. and they're obsessed with trolling all sorts of posts. Sad bastards, feel sorry for them to be honest.

Best response if you ever meet one in person is to talk about extinction of wildlife species and biodiversity collapase. It often catches them out and even a climate change denier can't deny it's happening or that we need a healthy ecosystem in order to survive. 

21 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

Aye.. and they're obsessed with trolling all sorts of posts. Sad bastards, feel sorry for them to be honest.

Best response if you ever meet one in person is to talk about extinction of wildlife species and biodiversity collapase. It often catches them out and even a climate change denier can't deny it's happening or that we need a healthy ecosystem in order to survive. 

Luckily, they seem to be in a minority nowadays and the net result of their bleating is more carbon dioxide from their massive gobs, which feeds our trees.

Hopefully the efforts being made will improve the climate & ecosystem. This will of course mean that Mr. Angry who is losing his shit over McDonalds making him drink through a paper straw will just say it was never an issue. Bless him.

On 13/11/2019 at 22:37, Moon boy said:

‘An electric car revolution’ is not the answer to moving people around

Moderb batteries use precious metals which makes them expensive, hard to manufacture and even harder to dispose off when their short working life is over.

Batteries are hard to charge quickly and efficiently and the infrastructure needed to replace petrol stations with charging stations is IMO impossible to achieve in the time environmentalist’s are demanding 

Electric cars at the moment are a car salesman’s dream, don’t forget it’s not long ago the Government were encouraging us to buy diesel cars

Unless scientists perfect the hydrogen engine quickly we’re fucked

Yeah I wasn't saying it was the solution. It just seems the lesser of two evils.

Like I've been saying the focus has to be around reducing demand massively across the board. The issue with that is it's a big change to consumerism as we know it. Something I'm happy with but some companies will no doubt kick their heels in.

We waste so much. We could half the people using cars in the next ten years if we invested in cycling infrastructure and public transport. Whilst protecting people who need to drive for their business or due to mobility issues. Also talk in the news today about reducing speed limits to 1970s levels would reduce emissions. We could also massively reduce the amount of electricity we use. Reducing demand, across the board, should be as central to the debate as renewable energy is.

Would like to see a 'war-time mobilisation' on this issue now we've declared a climate emergency. Get the army planting trees and rewilding and bring in legistlation that forces people to reduce certain things.

Edited November 15, 20196 yr by London Wanderer

23 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

Aye.. and they're obsessed with trolling all sorts of posts. Sad bastards, feel sorry for them to be honest.

Best response if you ever meet one in person is to talk about extinction of wildlife species and biodiversity collapase. It often catches them out and even a climate change denier can't deny it's happening or that we need a healthy ecosystem in order to survive. 

This may be true, though being a denier isn't the sole preserve of billionaires.

We've had one on here.

I suspect fracking will cause less environmental damage to the world than Electric cars