The Managerial Roundabout

[bolty58]

On 23/05/2024 at 11:27, Casino said:

wet spam

crippled alice

1% Club? Woolitch Arsenumb?

[woolli]

10 hours ago, Duck Egg said:

We were the 3rd best team in the division. That and our points total prove we were good enough to go up.  

So why havent we gone up? Enlighten me?

[Duck Egg]

20 minutes ago, woolli said:

So why havent we gone up? Enlighten me?

Well that's what we're debating! Personally, I think it's largely to do with the mental weakness of the squad and manager.  Every time we had a chance to break into the top two during the run in, we inevitably blew it until we ran out of games in hand.

It's what I find most frustrating about missing out. The squad and the manager, imo, were good enough to go up. In another season, even with this fragility, we could have gone up. It feels like a huge missed opportunity. Mainly because we didn't (or couldn't) address the issues that have been apparent during his tenure.

[woolli]

3 minutes ago, Duck Egg said:

Well that's what we're debating! Personally, I think it's largely to do with the mental weakness of the squad and manager.  Every time we had a chance to break into the top two during the run in, we inevitably blew it until we ran out of games in hand.

It's what I find most frustrating about missing out. The squad and the manager, imo, were good enough to go up. In another season, even with this fragility, we could have gone up. It feels like a huge missed opportunity. Mainly because we didn't (or couldn't) address the issues that have been apparent during his tenure.

I agree, massive opportunity missed, both in the regular season and playoffs I really dont know what can change this coming season that will be different  from the season just gone?

[Whitesince63]

24 minutes ago, woolli said:

I agree, massive opportunity missed, both in the regular season and playoffs I really dont know what can change this coming season that will be different  from the season just gone?

One place higher? 😀

[Dr. Feelgood]

1 hour ago, Duck Egg said:

Well that's what we're debating! Personally, I think it's largely to do with the mental weakness of the squad and manager.

As I have said many, many times ... & Jones confirmed yesterday ... we don't win the big games.

I hoped maybe the Barnsley (first) match showed we could change that. But no.

That needs new thinking & in one or two personnel. 

[Greg_BWFC]

1 hour ago, Whitesince63 said:

One place higher? 😀

But that will take 46 games.

Whereas we had one game to give our all to win it but laid a massive turd instead. 

Getting promoted is really difficult, takes a lot of things to go right.

And I think you need a bit of luck along the way.

Think we've blown our best chance for a while but one thing I will say is we are due a season with fewer injuries 🤞

[gonzo]

2 hours ago, woolli said:

So why havent we gone up? Enlighten me?

Did Oxford have a better season than us?

Or did they have a decent little run and one well executed game at Wembley?

It's all ifs buts and maybes. 

Bod scores at Derby or Dion scores at Pompey we go up.

We weren't that far away despite our obvious Fallings. 

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by gonzo

[woolli]

19 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Did Oxford have a better season than us?

Or did they have a decent little run and one well executed game at Wembley?

It's all ifs buts and maybes. 

Bod scores at Derby or Dion scores at Pompey we go up.

We weren't that far away despite our obvious Fallings. 

Did Oxford have a better season than us? They are in the Championship, we are in league one! There are no buts or maybes, the answer is there in one sentence! Yes!

[woolli]

Just now, woolli said:

23 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Did Oxford have a better season than us?

Or did they have a decent little run and one well executed game at Wembley?

It's all ifs buts and maybes. 

Bod scores at Derby or Dion scores at Pompey we go up.

We weren't that far away despite our obvious Fallings. 

Did Oxford have a better season than us? They are in the Championship, we are in league one! There are no buts or maybes, the answer is there in one sentence! Yes!

See above Gonz,, no idea how i managed to post on yours?

[Johnnyrotten]

3 hours ago, Duck Egg said:

Well that's what we're debating! Personally, I think it's largely to do with the mental weakness of the squad and manager.  Every time we had a chance to break into the top two during the run in, we inevitably blew it until we ran out of games in hand.

It's what I find most frustrating about missing out. The squad and the manager, imo, were good enough to go up. In another season, even with this fragility, we could have gone up. It feels like a huge missed opportunity. Mainly because we didn't (or couldn't) address the issues that have been apparent during his tenure.

But is it a mentality issue or an ability issue?  I'm struggling to see the evidence that either the manager or the players were good enough to win against the better opposition generally. Burnley & Sheff U were losing most games in the Prem, presumably because they weren't good enough generally rather than just mentality, they were beating the teams that are worse than them every week in the Championship, its the step up in opposition that is the problem. 

Corners overhit or hitting the first man; weak, misdirected shots, poor tackling, are they down to mentality?  We might be going down the wrong route if we think we just need to approach these games in a different frame of mind or get a psychologist in.  Rightly or wrongly, tactics aren't changing under IE and for me the most important players in our formation are the full backs, and if we don't get an upgrade next season we will struggle to improve against the better teams.

Edited May 28, 2024 by Johnnyrotten

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

I'd think mentality is as much a part of the requirement of being good enough as ability is

If we (or anyone) didn't have the mentality to get through the big  occasions then we weren't good enough

[Duck Egg]

49 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

But is it a mentality issue or an ability issue?  I'm struggling to see the evidence that either the manager of the players were good enough to win against the better opposition generally. Burnley & Sheff U were losing most games in the Prem, presumably because they weren't good enough generally rather than just mentality, they were beating the teams that are worse than them every week in the Championship, its the step up in opposition that is the problem. 

Corners overhit or hitting the first man; weak, misdirected shots, poor tackling, are they down to mentality?  We might be going down the wrong route if we think we just need to approach these games in a different frame of mind or get a psychologist in.  Rightly or wrongly, tactics aren't changing under IE and for me the most important players in our formation are the full backs, and if we don't get an upgrade next season we will struggle to improve against the better teams.

Could be both, I'm sure it is.

The evidence whether we were good enough to go up, is in the fact we were beaten to promotion by a side that finished well below us over a 46 game season. 

[Whitesince63]

52 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

But is it a mentality issue or an ability issue?  I'm struggling to see the evidence that either the manager of the players were good enough to win against the better opposition generally. Burnley & Sheff U were losing most games in the Prem, presumably because they weren't good enough generally rather than just mentality, they were beating the teams that are worse than them every week in the Championship, its the step up in opposition that is the problem. 

Corners overhit or hitting the first man; weak, misdirected shots, poor tackling, are they down to mentality?  We might be going down the wrong route if we think we just need to approach these games in a different frame of mind or get a psychologist in.  Rightly or wrongly, tactics aren't changing under IE and for me the most important players in our formation are the full backs, and if we don't get an upgrade next season we will struggle to improve against the better teams.

Good question that JR, ability or mentality? I just think we do have the ability, the players have shown it many times so maybe it’s not so much mentality as a confidence issue, a belief that we can beat these teams? If we keep losing to, or at least not beating these teams, maybe the players go into the games not believing they can win? I do believe in those circumstances you need at least one or two players who have a winning mentality to encourage the others and maybe that’s what’s missing? When you look at the players demeanour sometimes they really look defeated if they concede and don’t seem to have that fight to get back into the game. In those circumstances you just need someone to kick or cajole you back into it and I’m struggling to think of a player we have who does that.

[Johnnyrotten]

5 minutes ago, Duck Egg said:

Could be both, I'm sure it is.

The evidence whether we were good enough to go up, is in the fact we were beaten to promotion by a side that finished well below us over a 46 game season. 

I suppose the 46 game season only becomes key if it gets you in the top 2!  Otherwise, its all to play for in the last few months of the season between 3rd and about 10th. You could have a bottom half standard team in the 1st half of the season (Doncaster in L2, Lincoln also similar, Oxford couldn't buy a win for 2 months upto the 5-0 game) but if you win, say, 10 of the last 12 you'll probably get in the play offs and stand as much chance as anyone. 

The manager and the 11 players that started most games upto end Jan may have long gone, replaced by a new manager, players and tactics.  The 3rd promoted team doesn't mean they were the 3rd best all season, they were just good enough once the business end of the season started.  Our pre-March side was definitely better than Oxford but its hard to say if we are better than them now, I wouldn't necessarily expect to beat them if we played them again next week, they've improved hugely (jammy deflection for 1st goal though and 2nd was a foul that VAR should have picked up!).

[Zico]

Chelsea in for Leicester manager 

Seems random but like Arteta he was Peps assistant 

 

[Whitesince63]

6 hours ago, Greg_BWFC said:

But that will take 46 games.

Whereas we had one game to give our all to win it but laid a massive turd instead. 

Getting promoted is really difficult, takes a lot of things to go right.

And I think you need a bit of luck along the way.

Think we've blown our best chance for a while but one thing I will say is we are due a season with fewer injuries 🤞

Very true and I do agree about the luck, most of ours last years was bad. Look at Pompey and how many penalties and last minute goals they got. I’m not saying that’s all luck but a fair slice was there’s no denying but yes we may live to regret that Oxford performance for a while?

[tomski]

3 hours ago, Whitesince63 said:

Very true and I do agree about the luck, most of ours last years was bad. Look at Pompey and how many penalties and last minute goals they got. I’m not saying that’s all luck but a fair slice was there’s no denying but yes we may live to regret that Oxford performance for a while?

We were gifted promotion multiple times. 
 

Will never be gifted as much again.

[Whitesince63]

57 minutes ago, tomski said:

We were gifted promotion multiple times. 
 

Will never be gifted as much again.

Yep, can’t argue with that. ☹️

[gonzo]

13 minutes ago, Whitesince63 said:

Yep, can’t argue with that. ☹️

Nope. Even as an enteral happy clapper.

We will never have a better chance.

[bolty58]

17 hours ago, woolli said:

I agree, massive opportunity missed, both in the regular season and playoffs I really dont know what can change this coming season that will be different  from the season just gone?

Manager. Done well but a nagging doubt that he has reached his ceiling.

[Mantra]

Definitely a mentality issue imo…

Evatt mentioned it after one of the Wigan losses how he found it hard to motivate them. And finally admitted it after the Final.

Whether an excuse or not it’s a recurring theme. Big game on the line, more often than not we have come unstuck.

Whether it’s a Santos red card, an open net miss or just general shit play all round - it sticks in the memory.

Even the Barnsley semi final, we lost the second leg at home when it should’ve been a formality.

We have focused on recruiting technical players who have good attitudes and work hard.  Good pros who are not going to cause drama in the dressing room.

But by the same token we have missed recruiting a lot of grit, steel and determination. Players with fire in their belly.

It was identified at the end of last season and probably before that by many fans. They are intangible qualities, some players we have already have it more than others. Eg Charles looks like he would run through brick walls to chase down lost balls. I’m not sure the same could be said of Dan/Bod/Iredale/Williams. 

We have improved at what we do and the squad has improved but we have not done any of these this season:- 

- A run of wins that set us apart from the pack

- Made up lost ground when others dropped points

- Won resoundingly in a derby match or a big game

We don’t need to rip up the whole plan but we have to find a new way of dealing with these big games.
 

Either have a clear plan B/ different formation that is effective. (Sorry but going direct to Bod/Jerome/Dan is not good enough).

or

Sign some experienced pros or sacrifice the technicals for a bit more physicality and aggression - especially in midfield

or both

[Stig]

3 hours ago, Mantra said:

Definitely a mentality issue imo…

Evatt mentioned it after one of the Wigan losses how he found it hard to motivate them. And finally admitted it after the Final.

Whether an excuse or not it’s a recurring theme. Big game on the line, more often than not we have come unstuck.

Whether it’s a Santos red card, an open net miss or just general shit play all round - it sticks in the memory.

Even the Barnsley semi final, we lost the second leg at home when it should’ve been a formality.

We have focused on recruiting technical players who have good attitudes and work hard.  Good pros who are not going to cause drama in the dressing room.

But by the same token we have missed recruiting a lot of grit, steel and determination. Players with fire in their belly.

It was identified at the end of last season and probably before that by many fans. They are intangible qualities, some players we have already have it more than others. Eg Charles looks like he would run through brick walls to chase down lost balls. I’m not sure the same could be said of Dan/Bod/Iredale/Williams. 

We have improved at what we do and the squad has improved but we have not done any of these this season:- 

- A run of wins that set us apart from the pack

- Made up lost ground when others dropped points

- Won resoundingly in a derby match or a big game

We don’t need to rip up the whole plan but we have to find a new way of dealing with these big games.
 

Either have a clear plan B/ different formation that is effective. (Sorry but going direct to Bod/Jerome/Dan is not good enough).

or

Sign some experienced pros or sacrifice the technicals for a bit more physicality and aggression - especially in midfield

or both

Both please.

I like that you've mentioned plan B can't just be lumping it forward. I honestly have no idea what Evatt's thinking when we occasionally do this. Apart from Barnsley away it's usually an ineffective, desperate option. Instead plan B of playing fast, direct football on the floor, with a different formation to confuse the opposition would be great.

[gonzo]

Evatt to Burnley? 👀

[Rizlar]

4 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Evatt to Burnley? 👀

Frank Lampard