Euro 24

[Johnnyrotten]

1 hour ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

The credit for continually qualifying is a valid one, but I think the point about three consecutive semi-finals is a bit of a red herring

Progress in tournament football cam be heavily dependent on the draw and it's undeniable Southgate's been fortunate in that regard

The same applies to our relative success in Italia 90 under Robson

The thing thrown at Southgate has always been that if we play a heavyweight team in a knockout match overseas we don't win.  Its great that we're in the semi again but the question of how we play against a better side hasn't been addressed yet.  95% or whatever of other teams get to test themselves against a top team during qualifying for tournaments.  Then if they do get through they face a top seeded team in the group stages of the tournament, we never do. 

We rarely get to play one before the semi (last WC we lost in Q-Fs to France but if we'd played Switzerland we would have probably progressed to the semi and GS would have 4 under his belt instead of 3).

As an England fan, its great, can't wait for the semi.  But to laud Southgate for getting this talented group of players to scrape past Slovenia and Switzerland is over the top IMO (1 game and 4 draws in 90 minutes against average opposition).  Each to their own but I won't be judging the England manager whoever he is on the games played so far, more questions than answers.

[Eddie]

1 minute ago, Johnnyrotten said:

The thing thrown at Southgate has always been that if we play a heavyweight team in a knockout match overseas we don't win.  Its great that we're in the semi again but the question of how we play against a better side hasn't been addressed yet.  95% or whatever of other teams get to test themselves against a top team during qualifying for tournaments.  Then if they do get through they face a top seeded team in the group stages of the tournament, we never do. 

We rarely get to play one before the semi (last WC we lost in Q-Fs to France but if we'd played Switzerland we would have probably progressed to the semi and GS would have 4 under his belt instead of 3).

As an England fan, its great, can't wait for the semi.  But to laud Southgate for getting this talented group of players to scrape past Slovenia and Switzerland is over the top IMO (1 game and 4 draws in 90 minutes against average opposition).  Each to their own but I won't be judging the England manager whoever he is on the games played so far, more questions than answers.

This is exactly my view on it. There are 2 ways you can review his performances in tournaments, and both are completely reasonable in my opinion.

You look at it holistically in terms of overall outcome:

World Cup Semi and Quarter

Euros Final and Semi (at least)

It’s a brilliant record and you can’t take that away from him. Previous managers have sometimes struggled to even qualify so to not only do that comfortably every time but to also take us deep into each one has to be recognised and applauded.

The other is game by game, specifically once you get into the knockouts of each tournament. The record is

Won
Columbia (pens)
Sweden
Senegal
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark
Slovakia (ET)

Switzerland (pens)

Lost
Croatia
France
Italy

Other than Germany, who it’s fair to say were a shadow of their usual selves at that point, there is not one game from those that we’ve won that would have said beforehand we shouldn’t have. Of course, you’ve still got to beat them and in knockout football that’s easier said than done, but you can’t get away from just how lucky he’s got with the draws in each tournament - it’s likely had he lost any of the others, he wouldn’t have been given the next tournament. At the first point we have played anyone decent we’ve been out - people saying “Germany, Portugal and Italy might have looked better than us this tournament but are out” is clearly accurate, but if anyone thinks that we wouldn’t also be if we’d have been on that side of the draw then they’re kidding themselves.

I really hope we go on and win it and he goes out on a high. His record would look phenomenal and he seems like a really good bloke. I do still think that he’s a poor manager though and would prefer someone else taking us to the next World Cup.

[desperado]

1 hour ago, Stig said:

Did we stick in a 343 the whole game yesterday? Or when we went behind did it switch back to 4231? I can't see it on reports and I lost interest at half time and just popped back in when I heard goals and for the shootout.

It looked to me like he stuck with 3 at the back. At one point it looked like this:

                       Pickford 

            Walker.  Stones   Shaw

Saka.      Bellingham. Rice.      Eze    
               
                 Foden    Palmer

                         Kane 

   
                   

[desperado]

1 hour ago, Zico said:

England v Finland qualifier at Anfield was probably the moodiest game I've ever been too before, during and after, and not a Finland fan in sight

Aye kicking off all around Liverpool Friday/Saturday.

Took the missus and proposed on the Friday, told her we’d get a ring Saturday morning, but we’d have to be quick so that we could get to Anfield for the game… Great romantic that I am 

 

[L/H White]

have to start Shaw over trip in the semi 

[Wanderlust]

44 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Martinique and Guadeloupe are considered an integral part of France and can vote in French elections

I don't think the same is true of the British and Dutch overseas territories

I'm giving this one to Retard radio

Fair enough. Our overseas tax havens just rock up in London once a year to be told where to hide the oligarchs money and who will be in charge.

Residents are British nationals but not British "citizens" - although they could apply to be if they want to pay tax.

[Zico]

10 minutes ago, desperado said:

Aye kicking off all around Liverpool Friday/Saturday.

Took the missus and proposed on the Friday, told her we’d get a ring Saturday morning, but we’d have to be quick so that we could get to Anfield for the game… Great romantic that I am 

 

Was in some pub before the game on a square, few pubs all facing each other, all with big groups of lads outside itching to get stuck into each other 

Bloke turns up in our pub with a bag of baseball bats!

No surrender on repeat for 90 mins 

Got the national express from Manchester to Liverpool for some reason and on way back kicked off with Utd and City fans half way down the M62

[wiggy]

The idea that we can camp in our box for 90 minutes against Spain is just laughable

[Zico]

1 hour ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

 

 

[Casino]

5 hours ago, desperado said:

I’ve called him out this tournament for some of his decisions, but come on this deserves some acknowledgment and appreciation:

“England have now reached their third major tournament semi-final under Southgate's management.”

Years ago we had McLaren and Taylor who failed to even get us qualified for the Euros/World cup.

We’ve had countless underachievers and failures who don’t even come close to achieving what Southgate has.

I think he’ll go after this tournament. Surely no Englishman would want anything other than him going out as  a major trophy winner.

Like it or not, those boys love playing for him and its a motivating factor to do it for him.

Ramsey 'just' won a home tournament, then fucked up the next 2

Im ignoring euros as they were a whole diff ball game

[Johnnyrotten]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

This is exactly my view on it. There are 2 ways you can review his performances in tournaments, and both are completely reasonable in my opinion.

You look at it holistically in terms of overall outcome:

World Cup Semi and Quarter

Euros Final and Semi (at least)

It’s a brilliant record and you can’t take that away from him. Previous managers have sometimes struggled to even qualify so to not only do that comfortably every time but to also take us deep into each one has to be recognised and applauded.

The other is game by game, specifically once you get into the knockouts of each tournament. The record is

Won
Columbia (pens)
Sweden
Senegal
Germany
Ukraine
Denmark
Slovakia (ET)

Switzerland (pens)

Lost
Croatia
France
Italy

Other than Germany, who it’s fair to say were a shadow of their usual selves at that point, there is not one game from those that we’ve won that would have said beforehand we shouldn’t have. Of course, you’ve still got to beat them and in knockout football that’s easier said than done, but you can’t get away from just how lucky he’s got with the draws in each tournament - it’s likely had he lost any of the others, he wouldn’t have been given the next tournament. At the first point we have played anyone decent we’ve been out - people saying “Germany, Portugal and Italy might have looked better than us this tournament but are out” is clearly accurate, but if anyone thinks that we wouldn’t also be if we’d have been on that side of the draw then they’re kidding themselves.

I really hope we go on and win it and he goes out on a high. His record would look phenomenal and he seems like a really good bloke. I do still think that he’s a poor manager though and would prefer someone else taking us to the next World Cup.

Great summary, well explained.

[Stig]

1 hour ago, desperado said:

It looked to me like he stuck with 3 at the back. At one point it looked like this:

                       Pickford 

            Walker.  Stones   Shaw

Saka.      Bellingham. Rice.      Eze    
               
                 Foden    Palmer

                         Kane 

   
                   

No wonder I couldn't figure that out, that is one weird line up!

Southgate will now think he's found the answer with this 343 after squeezing past Switzerland, but I don't like the look of it at all against the Dutch. Their pacy wingers will have a field day against a back 3.

I'm amazed he's not tried Gordon on the left of a 3, Foden in the 10 and Bellingham box to box

[jmjhb]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/england-penalty-shootout-euro-2024-33124743

Article with Chris Markham about England's penalty preparation 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

15 hours ago, Alf Hartigan said:

Definitely the better team tonight. Not confident we will beat Netherlands in next round though, and despite supporting southgate in the past, I’m very dubious about his selections in this tournament 

Nowt in it.

I thought they should have nicked it at the end, when we had sat off them.

Either side could have won, but it wasn't a good watch. 

Slow, unadventurous, dull.

Obviously, we're all glad we're through, but if it's entertainment folk want, then it's a let down.

[gonzo]

Xavi Simmons looks like he's about to or is crying at any given point.

[Wanderlust]

We hype the Premiership and English players up so much whilst conveniently forgetting they are playing in predominantly foreign teams under predominantly foreign managers. Question for me is whether or not they're actually anywhere near as good as the English media hype?

As a team of English players I see them as somewhere around 10th in the world due to who and how they've played over the last few years - including in the competitions - so for me I think we've overachieved under Southgate to some extent.

I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we get past Holland.

[tomski]

I think we’ve a great chance of winning the semi.

Really needs to start Palmer. Just brings something different when he comes on and looks completely unfazed by the big occasion.

If we make the final it will be amazing. Never thought we’d make a final in my life time let alone 2 in 3 years.

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

12 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

We hype the Premiership and English players up so much whilst conveniently forgetting they are playing in predominantly foreign teams under predominantly foreign managers. Question for me is whether or not they're actually anywhere near as good as the English media hype?

As a team of English players I see them as somewhere around 10th in the world due to who and how they've played over the last few years - including in the competitions - so for me I think we've overachieved under Southgate to some extent.

I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we get past Holland.

I'm not unsympathetic to your argument but I'd point out that our very best - Bellingham, Palmer, Foden - are genuinely brilliant

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

Just now, tomski said:

I think we’ve a great chance of winning the semi.

Really needs to start Palmer. Just brings something different when he comes on and looks completely unfazed by the big occasion.

If we make the final it will be amazing. Never thought we’d make a final in my life time let alone 2 in 3 years.

It's one of the big things about him for me

He plays as if he's having a kickabout with his mates and I think we need that type of attitude when we come up against the elite

Bellingham and Saka had it in the final in 2020 too

[Wanderlust]

21 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I'm not unsympathetic to your argument but I'd point out that our very best - Bellingham, Palmer, Foden - are genuinely brilliant

I'd go back to the old trope "it's a team game". We've had brilliant players in a generation before and assorted attempts to shoehorn them into a system haven't really worked. Whether or not Southgate can find a solution that works for them and the "less brilliant" players is the question, And also do they have complimentary skillsets? Do we need more ballwinners and water carriers? I don't know.

[gonzo]

1 hour ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I'm not unsympathetic to your argument but I'd point out that our very best - Bellingham, Palmer, Foden - are genuinely brilliant

Aye whereas I agree we do hype our players a bit too much but you're not getting much better than winning la liga player of the year and winning the league and champions league double. Then we have Foden who has shone in probably the world's greatest squad under the worlds greatest manager. Then we have Kane who has been brilliant in Germany and scored a million goals.

Bit like the Gerrard/Beckham/Lampard generation, you can't overate absolute brilliance and accolades.

 

....like lusty says, it's how you make a team out of them to win stuff.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Can't say Declan Rice has been anything like the player he is for Arsenal.

He has got forward and supported well at club level, as well as doing his defensive work.

For England he's looked inhibited, and not particularly comfortable using his left peg neither.

Just uneasy compared to the confident Arsenal player.

All a bit odd.

[Alf Hartigan]

2 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

We hype the Premiership and English players up so much whilst conveniently forgetting they are playing in predominantly foreign teams under predominantly foreign managers. Question for me is whether or not they're actually anywhere near as good as the English media hype?

As a team of English players I see them as somewhere around 10th in the world due to who and how they've played over the last few years - including in the competitions - so for me I think we've overachieved under Southgate to some extent.

I'll be very pleasantly surprised if we get past Holland.

That’s my take on things

[Johnnyrotten]

27 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Can't say Declan Rice has been anything like the player he is for Arsenal.

He has got forward and supported well at club level, as well as doing his defensive work.

For England he's looked inhibited, and not particularly comfortable using his left peg neither.

Just uneasy compared to the confident Arsenal player.

All a bit odd.

I can't claim to have watched him closely for Arsenal, but he looks exactly the same player he is for Arsenal to me - good tackler, safe passer and got a shot on him.  Two superb shots on target (well, 1 saved and 1 hit post) which makes him relatively dynamic in this team.  Also a leader in a Kev Nolan type of way (a bit too pumped up?) and has no  left foot whoever he's playing for.  There's nobody better for that DM role in England, he isn't getting dropped in the foreseeable and rightly so. 

Regarding not being 2 footed, who is? Alan Stubbs was, Aaron Collins is, probably none of the England squad?  They are painfully one footed on the whole.  I find it strange that pro's are so limited as I was 2 footed from about the age of 10 just through practising with both feet about 10 hours a day 😀 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

Just now, Johnnyrotten said:

Regarding not being 2 footed, who is? Alan Stubbs was, Aaron Collins is, probably none of the England squad?  They are painfully one footed on the whole.  I find it strange that pro's are so limited as I was 2 footed from about the age of 10 just through practising with both feet about 10 hours a day 😀 

I've noticed that and it's not unique to us either

It just doesn't seem to be valued as much anymore