As suggested by @Johnnyrotten splitting this off from the transfer chat as a place for formation nerds like me to discuss tactics.

@wanderer1984 I agree 343 is a really weird formation. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 teams playing it successfully in the last 20ish years - Brazil 2002 and Chelsea under Conte.

Brazil 2002 had Cafu and Roberto Carlos as the wing backs.... And a front 3 that was ridiculous, so don't really work as a comparison to any other team.

However Chelsea under Conte is interesting. The 3 at the back helped to not expose David Luiz when he'd invariably wander. And the wing backs were completely different, Alonso was previously a full back, and Moses previously a winger. And Chelsea would play Azpilicueta at RCB to cover Moses.

So @Rival Son I'm not sure we need 2 primarily attacking wing backs to make it work. Schon as more attacking and Cogley more defensive could be fine.

The bit we are missing is in midfield though. Both those teams had pure enforcers in the centre. Chelsea had Matic and Kanye, and Brazil had Gilberto Silva and Kleberson (more a hard worker but not a ball player definitely). This is where we seem way off it with Thomason and Sheehan. I like both but they're not enforcers.

The slight tweak  from the games at the start of the season with the 3 up top is we’re getting the ball forward a lot quicker and not dwelling on the ball at the back .

The problem we will always have is we don’t have a striker to hold the ball up to give us the option of going more direct occasionally if we start loosing the middle of the park in certain games when we’re out numbered 

Edited November 3, 20241 yr by Farnywhite

Interestingly there's now a big team in the premier league playing the 523/343 so I've been watching how man u are doing it and if there's any real difference in type of player in each of the positions or style of play.

Observations:

-their best game v Everton had 2 defensive destroyers in midfield, similar to the way Conte's Chelsea used to line up. The other games they've been overrun at times playing Fernandes or Eriksen alongside a defensive mid. This seems to me one of biggest issues - Sheehan is our best midfielder but he's not a destroyer that's for certain 

-wingbacks - quite a big difference here in that they're playing a fullback on the left and a really attacking player on the right so they can revert to a back 4 if Diallo has gone forward and they lose the ball. Diallo also reminded me of when we had Connor Bradley but we can't expect to have a premier league standard player.

-their central striker can hold up the ball and play it through to a pacy striker in Rashford. We have Vic up top who isn't great at holding up play and then we tend to play McAtee and Collins either wise which is a bit too slow as a combo. Maybe CMG would add something but I've not seen him play, he's been injured that much.

All that being said, Man U have been pretty average in Amorim's first 3 games so I'm not saying we should copy them yet. If they start clicking into gear and we continue to play this formation, it's one we should learn from though.

2 hours ago, Stig said:

Interestingly there's now a big team in the premier league playing the 523/343 so I've been watching how man u are doing it and if there's any real difference in type of player in each of the positions or style of play.

Observations:

-their best game v Everton had 2 defensive destroyers in midfield, similar to the way Conte's Chelsea used to line up. The other games they've been overrun at times playing Fernandes or Eriksen alongside a defensive mid. This seems to me one of biggest issues - Sheehan is our best midfielder but he's not a destroyer that's for certain 

-wingbacks - quite a big difference here in that they're playing a fullback on the left and a really attacking player on the right so they can revert to a back 4 if Diallo has gone forward and they lose the ball. Diallo also reminded me of when we had Connor Bradley but we can't expect to have a premier league standard player.

-their central striker can hold up the ball and play it through to a pacy striker in Rashford. We have Vic up top who isn't great at holding up play and then we tend to play McAtee and Collins either wise which is a bit too slow as a combo. Maybe CMG would add something but I've not seen him play, he's been injured that much.

All that being said, Man U have been pretty average in Amorim's first 3 games so I'm not saying we should copy them yet. If they start clicking into gear and we continue to play this formation, it's one we should learn from though.

You sound like @tomski

On 03/12/2024 at 11:32, Stig said:

Interestingly there's now a big team in the premier league playing the 523/343 so I've been watching how man u are doing it and if there's any real difference in type of player in each of the positions or style of play.

Observations:

-their best game v Everton had 2 defensive destroyers in midfield, similar to the way Conte's Chelsea used to line up. The other games they've been overrun at times playing Fernandes or Eriksen alongside a defensive mid. This seems to me one of biggest issues - Sheehan is our best midfielder but he's not a destroyer that's for certain 

-wingbacks - quite a big difference here in that they're playing a fullback on the left and a really attacking player on the right so they can revert to a back 4 if Diallo has gone forward and they lose the ball. Diallo also reminded me of when we had Connor Bradley but we can't expect to have a premier league standard player.

-their central striker can hold up the ball and play it through to a pacy striker in Rashford. We have Vic up top who isn't great at holding up play and then we tend to play McAtee and Collins either wise which is a bit too slow as a combo. Maybe CMG would add something but I've not seen him play, he's been injured that much.

All that being said, Man U have been pretty average in Amorim's first 3 games so I'm not saying we should copy them yet. If they start clicking into gear and we continue to play this formation, it's one we should learn from though.

Having watched a few more of Man U's games I think the only thing we should be learning from them is this 523 is nonsense at any level.

Also, interesting watching them have the same tactical inflexibility as us when they went down to 10 men yesterday - keeping on the back 5 to stick rigidly to their system and, by doing so, offering nothing. Would have been funny but made me think of the Bristol Rovers game last season....

16 minutes ago, Stig said:

Having watched a few more of Man U's games I think the only thing we should be learning from them is this 523 is nonsense at any level.

Also, interesting watching them have the same tactical inflexibility as us when they went down to 10 men yesterday - keeping on the back 5 to stick rigidly to their system and, by doing so, offering nothing. Would have been funny but made me think of the Bristol Rovers game last season....

It's the shittest formation ever invented 

12 minutes ago, wanderer1984 said:

It's the shittest formation ever invented 

8 pages of analysis summarised 😂

We started this 3 5 2 system to utilise the wingbacks as they were our main focus of attack. Now we're trying to play more centrally with one less man in midfield. It's fookin bonkers.

Was telling a couple of DMBs about it other day.

Warned them that the numbers just don't add up. It works(ish) for 20 minutes each game but your wing backs end up shagged and isolated and your midfield struggling to cover ground with lack of sheer man power.

Any decent coach just plops another body in there and gets the ball in to the vast pocket space created by having nobody there.

You end up with clustered attacks on either flank caused the 2/1 or 3 up top.

Not a through or early ball in sight as you are top heavy.

It's asking too much from certain positions.

It’s the repeated failures and not learning our lessons that is the unforgivable thing.

Formations and tactics are a massive part of that and he’s been far too rigid with this system for my liking. 

The other side of it is concentration, focus and determination. We seem to be lacking that all over the place. Collins missing an open net, switching off on a set piece routine and not marking quickly enough. There are many other examples of those moments and they are becoming more regular.

Could say this side is more on the players than Evatt, but well-drilled teams often look fitter, stronger and more aware than the opposition. For a time in this division we looked to be that sort of team.
 

When we had the Sunderland 6-0 form, we regularly looked sharper and quicker than other teams and almost like we had more players on the pitch than them. Now we look so lifeless and slow, it’s fucking shite.

I think the players are as bored as we are.

31 minutes ago, Mantra said:

When we had the Sunderland 6-0 form, we regularly looked sharper and quicker than other teams and almost like we had more players on the pitch than them. Now we look so lifeless and slow, it’s fucking shite.

If we compare the side that day same formation as now

fossey and John wing backs (we have gone backwards on that so that’s probably the main difference ) .
Santos jones and Johnston at the back roughly the same though all 3 as may be regressed a bit

. Midfield Morley , MJ Williams , Lee are our midfield options worse ?  I would say not if we have Morley back   (but playing only two in some games does not help ) 

strikers Dapo and Charles ( we have nothing like dapo but Collins is ok ) bodvarason on the bench a step up from mctee but bod was injury prone Bako and victor well bako could hold a ball up better but both poor so not much difference up front 

Edited December 27, 20241 yr by Farnywhite

I refuse to judge the players until Evatt has gone.

2 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

I refuse to judge the players until Evatt has gone.

Thank you.

I'd llike to think we've got the players to get us in the playoffs, but we have to ditch the like for like 70th minute substitutions, take the shackles off them and let them play for their places.

Nobody is playing for their place, IE has already sorted that out but until min 70 he's the only one who knows.

It's tinkering gone mad.

23 minutes ago, FrancisFogarty said:

I'd llike to think we've got the players to get us in the playoffs, but we have to ditch the like for like 70th minute substitutions, take the shackles off them and let them play for their places.

Nobody is playing for their place, IE has already sorted that out but until min 70 he's the only one who knows.

It's tinkering gone mad.

Playing them in their correct positions would be a start. At least give them a fair shot at it

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Playing them in their correct positions would be a start. At least give them a fair shot at it

If they can remember what their correct positions are I reckon we’d be on the way.

I'd love to know what Evatt sees in training this season that makes him think these new tactics and formation work and are worth sticking with.

The only thing that hasn't changed is fucking around with it at the back.

Looks like we've spunked more money on a player that plays in the useless front 3 positions.

When Evatt eventually fucks off and ends up at another club ... I hope he does us a favour and spends his kitty on McAtee.

 

4 minutes ago, wanderer1984 said:

I'd love to know what Evatt sees in training this season that makes him think these new tactics and formation work and are worth sticking with.

The only thing that hasn't changed is fucking around with it at the back.

Looks like we've spunked more money on a player that plays in the useless front 3 positions.

When Evatt eventually fucks off and ends up at another club ... I hope he does us a favour and spends his kitty on McAtee.

 

Well, our attackers are going against our defence, so ......

One player with a hint of physicality in midfield. 

Away from home. 

Su-fuckin-perb.

Total pillock.

2 hours ago, wanderer1984 said:

I'd love to know what Evatt sees in training this season that makes him think these new tactics and formation work and are worth sticking with.

The only thing that hasn't changed is fucking around with it at the back.

Looks like we've spunked more money on a player that plays in the useless front 3 positions.

When Evatt eventually fucks off and ends up at another club ... I hope he does us a favour and spends his kitty on McAtee.

 

He’s not there most of the time so probably nothing. 

it felt that whenever they had a long ball, their players were right on the end of it, and that we had no way to deal with it,

Our defence has no confidence in itself. 

Time to call off the daft wing back plan! His excuse was that he doesn't have the players to change that, well he's brining in more of the same and not addressing that issue.

 

Sideways and backwards....

Just now, only1swanny said:

it felt that whenever they had a long ball, their players were right on the end of it, and that we had no way to deal with it,

Our defence has no confidence in itself. 

Time to call off the daft wing back plan! His excuse was that he doesn't have the players to change that, well he's brining in more of the same and not addressing that issue.

 

Sideways and backwards....

Balls down the channels. 

Turn the defence around, and chase them into the corners forcing them to play the ball.

Fairly simple and fairly effective. 

Won't make you championship ready though when you get there 😒

48 minutes ago, only1swanny said:

it felt that whenever they had a long ball, their players were right on the end of it, and that we had no way to deal with it,

Our defence has no confidence in itself. 

Time to call off the daft wing back plan! His excuse was that he doesn't have the players to change that, well he's brining in more of the same and not addressing that issue.

 

Sideways and backwards....

Sure Tutu and Schon are actually wingers.

With Williams/Jones/Cogley there's more than enough full backs.

Said it after Wigan, Same after Barnsley, Same last week, only a system change can save him or the season now.

Maybe Randall is a quality player . I didnt rate him at peterboro but Ill give him the rest of the season before I make a judgement on how he is for us. But its a signing we didnt need.

McaTee has had a torrid start for us but he is 10 times the plater Adebanjo is so Im willing to give him more time as well . 

Campo & Hierro were shit for us for 5 months until it clicked . Drogba was hopeless for the same amount of time . Anelka took 3 months before he scored a goal . Different positions and players but sometimes it takes a while to bed in . Not everyone is an Alan Shearer. 

We havent had a recognised DMC since Williams and we have been desperate for it for years trying to shoehorn , Morley , Sheehan , Thommason & Matete into that roll without success .  Its a 2 fer one. Get a DMC and that frees up one of the others as an attacking midfielder . The back 3 are woefully exposed and the midfield is lacking bodies. 

We have talent galore but are a team of individuals . If the midfield cant control the game then the forwards dont get a pass . And Ndululu , Adebanjo, Collins, Macatee, Lolos, Gomez and Charles is ridiculous . our wing backs arent wing backs so sacrifice them . We cant keep changing personell so change the formation OR find another Gardner & Mendy pairing. 

Wish Mr ego and chief would play this: