Time for a new manager?

[gonzo]

That Iles piece in the BEN is brilliant.

I reckon that's just the tip of the iceberg re the discontent behind the scenes.

Seen it all before, cliques within the group, upset players causing grief and shouting the loudest.

The cunts down tooled last season after SS lost the plot with them and it seems a few have done similar this.

You can tell with SS Interviews he's had it with a few of them.

Can talk about systems and tactics all day long but you can clearly see there's a lot just going through the motions.

Not a stitch of bravery on the ball with or without.

I'd back SS all day long to weed the cunts out.

Same under Evatt, same late on last season, the players get away with fuckin murder.

 

[frank_spencer]

11 minutes ago, gonzo said:

That Iles piece in the BEN is brilliant.

I reckon that's just the tip of the iceberg re the discontent behind the scenes.

Seen it all before, cliques within the group, upset players causing grief and shouting the loudest.

The cunts down tooled last season after SS lost the plot with them and it seems a few have done similar this.

You can tell with SS Interviews he's had it with a few of them.

Can talk about systems and tactics all day long but you can clearly see there's a lot just going through the motions.

Not a stitch of bravery on the ball with or without.

I'd back SS all day long to weed the cunts out.

Same under Evatt, same late on last season, the players get away with fuckin murder.

 

Bulk of this squad is Schueys TBF.

Completely different recruitment team too.

Not having it that any bad eggs from last season are still involved and if they are that's on SS and his team.

[Tombwfc]

To have players down tools twice in less than a calendar year would be some going if true.

[Matt Lofthouse]

If there are bad eggs left it points towards toal, Johnston, tutu, cogley, Sheehan, Morley, Dempsey, McAtee. 

Can’t see it myself, all are playing even if one is joining Stockport. 

[Matt Lofthouse]

Agree with Gonz though, they do get away with murder and it’s the manager that gets the brunt of it. 

[bwfc6ix]

8 minutes ago, Matt Lofthouse said:

If there are bad eggs left it points towards toal, Johnston, tutu, cogley, Sheehan, Morley, Dempsey, McAtee. 

Can’t see it myself, all are playing even if one is joining Stockport. 

To be fair, of those 8 you just listed I think I'd only keep 2/3 so if they're the 'bad eggs' then I wouldn't be arsed if they left. 

[Whitesince63]

1 hour ago, gonzo said:

That Iles piece in the BEN is brilliant.

I reckon that's just the tip of the iceberg re the discontent behind the scenes.

Seen it all before, cliques within the group, upset players causing grief and shouting the loudest.

The cunts down tooled last season after SS lost the plot with them and it seems a few have done similar this.

You can tell with SS Interviews he's had it with a few of them.

Can talk about systems and tactics all day long but you can clearly see there's a lot just going through the motions.

Not a stitch of bravery on the ball with or without.

I'd back SS all day long to weed the cunts out.

Same under Evatt, same late on last season, the players get away with fuckin murder.

 

I’d back him all the way too. We can not have players running the show whoever they are and cliques in the dressing room are a no no too. We don’t know that’s the case but if it is then however tough it is to do Schuey has to sideline any players involved. Easier said than done I accept but if you cause trouble you don’t play and then stick to it. I don’t personally see one player in that squad that I’d shed a tear leaving if they were the cause.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

I doubt any trouble is all down to one party- both players and manager/coaches will need to look at themselves.

We were told that the squad would be reduced in size and that kids would make up numbers.

Neither seemed to be the case, and youngsters gone on loan. No problem with that if it is to their benefit, but it seems he has been unable to keep a large squad happy.

They have all had a go, some more than others, and maybe he has tried too hard to involve them, as I'm far from convinced about the number of changes per game.

If he is to turn it round and save his bacon, then the backroom team need to work tirelessly to get out those bad eggs/ones who just aren't quite making it.

If we can get one or two replacements in then great, but as things stand, I reckon we have a better chance with a smaller squad of players who actually want to play and exhibit enough commitment on the pitch, without the distraction of others.

[onefinfrandsen]

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

That Iles piece in the BEN is brilliant.

I reckon that's just the tip of the iceberg re the discontent behind the scenes.

Seen it all before, cliques within the group, upset players causing grief and shouting the loudest.

The cunts down tooled last season after SS lost the plot with them and it seems a few have done similar this.

You can tell with SS Interviews he's had it with a few of them.

Can talk about systems and tactics all day long but you can clearly see there's a lot just going through the motions.

Not a stitch of bravery on the ball with or without.

I'd back SS all day long to weed the cunts out.

Same under Evatt, same late on last season, the players get away with fuckin murder.

 

Sure mcginlay after Tuesdays game said evatt still has an influence in some of the squad.

[Tombwfc]

I just can't get my head around how two different runs of awful form could be put down to the players, but not the manager. They were six months apart and we signed about 10+ players in between.

Clear them all out, sure. But what on earth has SS done to give anyone any confidence that he should oversee a rebuild? 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

5 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

I just can't get my head around how two different runs of awful form could be put down to the players, but not the manager. They were six months apart and we signed about 10+ players in between.

Clear them all out, sure. But what on earth has SS done to give anyone any confidence that he should oversee a rebuild? 

Aye.

Sort of what I was getting above.

Can't see the club pushing the boat out- even if we had plenty to afford it- without a clear understanding of the circumstances, and confidence that SS was "in the right".

 

[L/H White]

3 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

Bulk of this squad is Schueys TBF.

Completely different recruitment team too.

Not having it that any bad eggs from last season are still involved and if they are that's on SS and his team.

Mcatee will be definitely one 

And how the fuck do you shift him, he's shite and cost a fortune (at this level)

[gonzo]

1 hour ago, Tombwfc said:

I just can't get my head around how two different runs of awful form could be put down to the players, but not the manager. They were six months apart and we signed about 10+ players in between.

Clear them all out, sure. But what on earth has SS done to give anyone any confidence that he should oversee a rebuild? 

Got a team promoted from this division.

He at least deserves longer than 12 months and one window that's for certain.

[RUREADY2ROLL]

4 hours ago, gonzo said:

That Iles piece in the BEN is brilliant.

I reckon that's just the tip of the iceberg re the discontent behind the scenes.

Seen it all before, cliques within the group, upset players causing grief and shouting the loudest.

The cunts down tooled last season after SS lost the plot with them and it seems a few have done similar this.

You can tell with SS Interviews he's had it with a few of them.

Can talk about systems and tactics all day long but you can clearly see there's a lot just going through the motions.

Not a stitch of bravery on the ball with or without.

I'd back SS all day long to weed the cunts out.

Same under Evatt, same late on last season, the players get away with fuckin murder.

 

I agree with what you say but it’s likely to be SS pissing them off

[Cheese]

We need a couple of hard fuckers in the team. No idea why, but I thought Simons was that when he first signed, but he's been fairly anonymous. We've been a bunch of softies for far too long. Dempsey is the closest we've got, but even after returning to full fitness, he's been in and out of the team far too much.

[Rizlar]

2 minutes ago, Cheese said:

We need a couple of hard fuckers in the team. No idea why, but I thought Simons was that when he first signed, but he's been fairly anonymous. We've been a bunch of softies for far too long. Dempsey is the closest we've got, but even after returning to full fitness, he's been in and out of the team far too much.

Elliot Lee takes no prisoners .

[ianofcleveleys]

5 hours ago, gonzo said:

Same under Evatt, same late on last season, the players get away with fuckin murder.

I think this harks back to Evatt's 'fragile mentality' dig after Rotherham away last season. Although he got panned for it (and he'd signed them all so some of it was on him), there was a ring of truth in it and there still is now. 

We still have too many, even after SS's changes, that don't have the minerals to dig in at tough places or roust themselves and others to respond when 20k of us ask for more of them. Some look scared, of the size of the crowd at home and the vociferous nature away, at small grounds where ifs up close and sometimes personal.

On the downing tools thing, there may be something that'll come out in the wash to substantiate it, but there's a bit of two things for me, some may have sacked it and their negativity is bleeding through into others, while others are young players who've hit a wall form and energy wise, all at the same time and too early in the season. 

So, some may have downed tools but the impact of that has been magnified by 3 or 4 falling off a form cliff at the same time

 

 

[Farnywhite]

To be fair I don’t think evatt would take many of them he signed he accused the squad of not training properly when he wasn’t there 

[Zog1]

16 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

I think this harks back to Evatt's 'fragile mentality' dig after Rotherham away last season. Although he got panned for it (and he'd signed them all so some of it was on him), there was a ring of truth in it and there still is now. 

We still have too many, even after SS's changes, that don't have the minerals to dig in at tough places or roust themselves and others to respond when 20k of us ask for more of them. Some look scared, of the size of the crowd at home and the vociferous nature away, at small grounds where ifs up close and sometimes personal.

On the downing tools thing, there may be something that'll come out in the wash to substantiate it, but there's a bit of two things for me, some may have sacked it and their negativity is bleeding through into others, while others are young players who've hit a wall form and energy wise, all at the same time and too early in the season. 

So, some may have downed tools but the impact of that has been magnified by 3 or 4 falling off a form cliff at the same time

 

 

There's nothing to it mate. It was bollocks when Evatt said it and it's laughable now. 

The team struggled with under Evatt because in order to better meet his tactics, he removed versatility in the squad, things like flair, pace and strength, were seen as a hindrance. This weakness in physicality was identified by more and more teams, this created gaps between the attack, midfield and defence. The wing backs the core to making that system work were pinned back. To try and add some physicality to the middle, the 3 centre backs were moved a tiny bit further forward and that's when mistakes and injuries really started to flair up.

This team isn't struggling for that same reason and it is fundamentally versatile, the problem is all our attacks start off with the ball being passed to Gale or ACD, if you look back earlier in the season see how much space both of them are allowed (the highlights are there on youtube). While this was wasteful with them ignoring a simple pass for cutting inside to try to shoot from 30 yards 9/10 times a game, we were still getting goals, inconsistantly, but often enough to look like we were doing well. 

That has now totally changed, teams have figured out that if they just have one or two men mark ACD especially at basically all times, they've almost entirely neutered our attack. The issue here is that in a normal team, we would play more through the middle, ACD and Gale would try and do more overlaps, underlaps, and try to get to the byline. That isnt happening and that is tactical, that is the responsibility of SS not the players. 

[perth_white]

12 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

There's nothing to it mate. It was bollocks when Evatt said it and it's laughable now. 

The team struggled with under Evatt because in order to better meet his tactics, he removed versatility in the squad, things like flair, pace and strength, were seen as a hindrance. This weakness in physicality was identified by more and more teams, this created gaps between the attack, midfield and defence. The wing backs the core to making that system work were pinned back. To try and add some physicality to the middle, the 3 centre backs were moved a tiny bit further forward and that's when mistakes and injuries really started to flair up.

This team isn't struggling for that same reason and it is fundamentally versatile, the problem is all our attacks start off with the ball being passed to Gale or ACD, if you look back earlier in the season see how much space both of them are allowed (the highlights are there on youtube). While this was wasteful with them ignoring a simple pass for cutting inside to try to shoot from 30 yards 9/10 times a game, we were still getting goals, inconsistantly, but often enough to look like we were doing well. 

That has now totally changed, teams have figured out that if they just have one or two men mark ACD especially at basically all times, they've almost entirely neutered our attack. The issue here is that in a normal team, we would play more through the middle, ACD and Gale would try and do more overlaps, underlaps, and try to get to the byline. That isnt happening and that is tactical, that is the responsibility of SS not the players. 

I hope you have this on your copy and paste, can't imagine how many times you'd have had to type exactly the same thing otherwise.

[Wanderlust]

When Markham signed Randall, Schon and McAtee etc, Evatt clearly felt he’d been sold a pup and the”fragile mentality” comment probably related to the Prima Donna aspect of some players believing their own hype and he made it clear those players hadn’t got what it takes to get promoted.

You can see it when certain players try and fail to execute technical passes and flicks and the movement is negligible - we often look like fancy dans expecting to win without earning it.

Whatever SS tries to sort it out -system changes, getting rid of dead wood, redefining roles - is ok by me, because change is needed.

[gonzo]

6 hours ago, perth_white said:

I hope you have this on your copy and paste, can't imagine how many times you'd have had to type exactly the same thing otherwise.

It's all part of his power point presentation for when he goes for the Strasbourg job.

 

[ianofcleveleys]

6 hours ago, Zog1 said:

The team struggled with under Evatt because in order to better meet his tactics, he removed versatility in the squad, things like flair, pace and strength, were seen as a hindrance. This weakness in physicality was identified by more and more teams, this created gaps between the attack, midfield and defence. The wing backs the core to making that system work were pinned back. To try and add some physicality to the middle, the 3 centre backs were moved a tiny bit further forward and that's when mistakes and injuries really started to flair up.

For sure there was a chunk of that comment that was the flounderings of somebody who'd lost it, and he couldn't have it both ways, accusing them of lacking personality having removed a lot of the room for it with a stultifying insistence on a method of playing. 

We did though have that issue of folding up in the big games and derbies, nights like the one at Cambridge, where they were (according to him), scared of the atmosphere, and the Oxford no show. 

He signed them and his way drained the personality out of them, where I was going with it was it was something SS couldn't fathom late last season and something I at least sensed he'd be keen to address, and with days like the one against Wigan (h) maybe he'd cracked it.

Over the last few weeks though we've had a mix of too many losing form and confidence at once and not enough strong characters to help pull them round while maintaining their own standards. Christie's 'quiet group' comment laid it bare. The very best squads have half a dozen leaders in them, we don't look like we've any.

Of course, and I hope this happens, tomorrow may be a line in the sand day and we see some collective bollocks being shown and stomach for doing what's needed to put things right in a big derby.

[Tombwfc]

10 hours ago, gonzo said:

Got a team promoted from this division.

He at least deserves longer than 12 months and one window that's for certain.

 

The fact he got a team promoted from this division is why he got the job and that's fine. But there are lots of managers who have been promoted from this division who've turned out to be fucking awful.

As a manager I think you get to play the 'these cunts have downed tools on me' card once. Not twice in a year. What if they're not having him because he's shit?

None of us really know what's going on, but it'd be pretty unfortunate if he's actually a brilliant manager but his players keep spontaneously giving up on him every six months. And Stoke obviously didn't see the vision either.

At some point he's got to own his results, including how he's handling the squad.

[gonzo]

6 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

The fact he got a team promoted from this division is why he got the job and that's fine. But there are lots of managers who have been promoted from this division who've turned out to be fucking awful.

As a manager I think you get to play the 'these cunts have downed tools on me' card once. Not twice in a year. What if they're not having him because he's shit?

None of us really know what's going on, but it'd be pretty unfortunate if he's actually a brilliant manager but his players keep spontaneously giving up on him every six months. And Stoke obviously didn't see the vision either.

At some point he's got to own his results, including how he's handling the squad.

Totally agree I'm not giving him a pass in any way shape of form.

Sounds like he's partial to losing his cool both in the dressing room and knee jerk subs and team selections.

Twice over the past two weeks alone we've seen exactly that, his mad starting 11 followed by 44 minute subs the week after. 

Players won't react well to that kind of shit especially with a back drop of already disgruntled and vociferous players. 

To me bravery isnt just running and tackling, it's on the ball. It looks to me like the players are just going through the motions, choosing to hide, turn inside play safe, slow movement and marking yourself.

Attitude and application is everything and that to me is on the players as much as the manager who probably needs to get an arm round a few instead of booting off with them.

I'm far from convinced on SS and whether he's got the chops to deal witn all this, especially with a massive expectant fanbase breathing down his neck. 

I'd rather wait and see, give him this window and get rid of some of the clique and just hope he can turn the ship around.