(That long since we've had any, couldn't find the thread)

Alan Nixon: "Top Liverpool starlet Cameron Branagan will Ben allowed out on loan in Jan.

Bolton lead the race for the 20 year old midfielder"

Edited December 11, 20169 yr by Ratwhite

14 hours ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Managerial win rate without context is a meaningless statistic

For one, Evatt's managerial win rate include no matches above the third tier

It’s not meaningless though. Evatt was never in a position to work with Championship or Premiership quality players. 

Nor were the opposition usually able to field such players.

Everything’s relative and you mentioned “context” - well Evatt was the most successful in the context  he was in.

 

17 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

It’s not meaningless though. Evatt was never in a position to work with Championship or Premiership quality players. 

Nor were the opposition usually able to field such players.

Everything’s relative and you mentioned “context” - well Evatt was the most successful in the context  he was in.

 

I wouldn’t say it’s meaningless but it’s definitely unfair to compare across divisions in my opinion. Bolton in L2/L1 are a much bigger fish than in the Premier League.

We are much more competitive financially, we get better crowds than most, are generally a more attractive club for players to join than most at this level.

I expect Bolton to win a lot more games in L1/L2 than in the Prem regardless of who is manager.

6 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

It’s not meaningless though. Evatt was never in a position to work with Championship or Premiership quality players. 

Nor were the opposition usually able to field such players.

Everything’s relative and you mentioned “context” - well Evatt was the most successful in the context  he was in.

 

It is literally meaningless

He might be the best in the context he was in but he was the only one in that context

Bar Rioch briefly, none of the other managers mentioned managed in the third tier so there can't be any direct comparison

It's a basic fact that the relative economics make it easier for a manager of our club to win matches in the third tier than higher up the pyramid

If you think Evatt's managerial win rate of 50% in the third and fourth tier is a better achievement or makes him more successful than Allardyce and his managerial win rate of 41% mainly in the Premier League then I don't know what to tell you

6 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

So the club appoint a recruitment guru and former England national team analyst on a massive salary, who has direct contact with the board and is backed up by a team of analysts.

Evatt says we need x or y.

Said guru says to the board and to Evatt we need to sign this bloke - he’s the best guy within our budget for the role - just look at his stats.

What’s Evatt going to say? You and your entire department are a waste of space and your (extensive) research is meaningless?

Answer: Probably not.

Although he should perhaps have asked to see what criteria they applied when measuring attitude and commitment.

Maybe he should of questioned why xor y was not playing week in, week out.......More than once Evatt said we are only signing said player because he missed x amount of time out with injuries but he is ok now.  Only the week after to say that player is not match fit, and will need six to eight weeks to bring him up to match ready.....The problem we have is that FV are good business people. but know very little about football......Hence the trust they placed on the Football management side of the club.

What relevance is the England national team analyst if he cannot say player x will role up his sleeves in league one on a frosty January night game away to Wigan.....If you sign a player you need to watch him live in these sort of games

See was he hiding in these gamed, did he even start, how did he play, was he barking instructions, play to the crowd when challenges are made. Rolled his sleeves up......Did he thrive

None of the above can be found on a computer......Players have always needed scouting

All the above do not need checking when you are talking about England players they all have it with abundance

All the above NEED checking when you are signing league one players

12 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

It is literally meaningless

He might be the best in the context he was in but he was the only one in that context

Bar Rioch briefly, none of the other managers mentioned managed in the third tier so there can't be any direct comparison

It's a basic fact that the relative economics make it easier for a manager of our club to win matches in the third tier than higher up the pyramid

If you think Evatt's managerial win rate of 50% in the third and fourth tier is a better achievement or makes him more successful than Allardyce and his managerial win rate of 41% mainly in the Premier League then I don't know what to tell you

This!!!!

55 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

Maybe he should of questioned why xor y was not playing week in, week out.......More than once Evatt said we are only signing said player because he missed x amount of time out with injuries but he is ok now.  Only the week after to say that player is not match fit, and will need six to eight weeks to bring him up to match ready.....The problem we have is that FV are good business people. but know very little about football......Hence the trust they placed on the Football management side of the club.

What relevance is the England national team analyst if he cannot say player x will role up his sleeves in league one on a frosty January night game away to Wigan.....If you sign a player you need to watch him live in these sort of games

See was he hiding in these gamed, did he even start, how did he play, was he barking instructions, play to the crowd when challenges are made. Rolled his sleeves up......Did he thrive

None of the above can be found on a computer......Players have always needed scouting

All the above do not need checking when you are talking about England players they all have it with abundance

All the above NEED checking when you are signing league one players

So you totally agree with the point I made about the limitations of data analysis then? 
Good - it is the correct answer. 😎

6 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

So you totally agree with the point I made about the limitations of data analysis then? 
Good - it is the correct answer. 😎

On that yes very much

1 hour ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

 

If you think Evatt's managerial win rate of 50% in the third and fourth tier is a better achievement or makes him more successful than Allardyce and his managerial win rate of 41% mainly in the Premier League then I don't know what to tell you

I wouldn’t be able to guess if it’s a better or worse achievement because as I went to lengths to explain, there are two many variables and it’s about context.

In fact I would mention another variable -  the relative financial capacity, willingness to spend and pull of our club before and after our flirtation with oblivion.

But at the end of the day, tinternet is full of data and articles that compare managers on “win rate” which I think we can agree is about as much use as “XG” or historical record between clubs - neither of which have any impact on the outcome of an actual game.

What needs pointing out though is there is no place for amateur psychologists claiming to have an insight into the inner workings of e.g. Evatt’s mind and guessing at his motivation and logic in decision making - based only on PR messaging/interviews, hearsay and an old video with his knob out,

I thought that Evatt would struggle if we got into the Championship dealing with better more imaginative players when he couldn't handle Afolayan and fit his mercurial skills into the team. He fit into the Bundesliga ok though.

12 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

On that yes very much

So the only bit you disagree with is the fictional scenario of the relationship between Markham and Evatt that I wrote?

Your choice but it’s every bit as valid and just as likely as the alternative fictional scenarios of that relationship quoted by some on social media as if they were facts and used as a basis to pretend they have some deep insight into the workings of Evatt’s mind.

I know some keyboard warriors need to big themselves up and boost their ego by claiming to know what x or y was thinking but the fact is they - like us - will never know who thought what or how the relationships worked in practice.

10 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

I wouldn’t be able to guess if it’s a better or worse achievement

Well you fucking should be able to.

Look at the opposition Allardyce was up against each week and look at what Evatt was up against.

In comparison, Allardyce's Bolton was a tiddler in the pond. Evatt's was a Great White ... But unfortunately one that he'd removed the teeth from.

Evatt bragging about his win percentage when it was going tits up was the last thrashings of a bloke who'd lost it and showed how meaningless it is. 

You could win 50% of your games every season but if you're hopelessly inconsistent and lose the other 50% you'd end up 8th or 9th in any normal season and achieve fuck all. 

Somebody who puts a more solid team together could win less than 50% of their games and get promoted.

8 minutes ago, DazBob said:

Well you fucking should be able to.

Look at the opposition Allardyce was up against each week and look at what Evatt was up against.

In comparison, Allardyce's Bolton was a tiddler in the pond. Evatt's was a Great White ... But unfortunately one that he'd removed the teeth from.

Yeah - I loved that “underdog” mentality/attitude at the time.

TBF it got a bit harder to believe in the more marquee signings we made.

26 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

I wouldn’t be able to guess if it’s a better or worse achievement because as I went to lengths to explain, there are two many variables and it’s about context.

In fact I would mention another variable -  the relative financial capacity, willingness to spend and pull of our club before and after our flirtation with oblivion.

But at the end of the day, tinternet is full of data and articles that compare managers on “win rate” which I think we can agree is about as much use as “XG” or historical record between clubs - neither of which have any impact on the outcome of an actual game.

What needs pointing out though is there is no place for amateur psychologists claiming to have an insight into the inner workings of e.g. Evatt’s mind and guessing at his motivation and logic in decision making - based only on PR messaging/interviews, hearsay and an old video with his knob out,

Right, but it was you who brought managerial win rate into the equation and you were also speculating on Evatt's decision making

I just don’t get how anyone is defending Evatt. He was too busy fucking around and generally being a cunt to the detriment of Bolton wanderers. SB was too busy trying to save him from his demons and allowed it to happen.

i also believe Evatt would request types of player. He wasn’t just forced to accept people. Fuck me this man had N’Lundulu, played him, watch him be utter dog shit and then signed him permanently 

2 minutes ago, Big E said:

I just don’t get how anyone is defending Evatt. He was too busy fucking around and generally being a cunt to the detriment of Bolton wanderers. SB was too busy trying to save him from his demons and allowed it to happen.

i also believe Evatt would request types of player. He wasn’t just forced to accept people. Fuck me this man had N’Lundulu, played him, watch him be utter dog shit and then signed him permanently 

I'll still never understand this one 

26 minutes ago, DazBob said:

Well you fucking should be able to.

Look at the opposition Allardyce was up against each week and look at what Evatt was up against.

In comparison, Allardyce's Bolton was a tiddler in the pond. Evatt's was a Great White ... But unfortunately one that he'd removed the teeth from.

Imagining a Great White with no teeth swimming sideways and backwards trying to take on a low block of seals.

23 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

So the only bit you disagree with is the fictional scenario of the relationship between Markham and Evatt that I wrote?

Your choice but it’s every bit as valid and just as likely as the alternative fictional scenarios of that relationship quoted by some on social media as if they were facts and used as a basis to pretend they have some deep insight into the workings of Evatt’s mind.

I know some keyboard warriors need to big themselves up and boost their ego by claiming to know what x or y was thinking but the fact is they - like us - will never know who thought what or how the relationships worked in practice.

No i strongly disagree with your thoughts on Evatt and his win ratio........It is very easy to spin anything or any % win ratio

Example.............Evatt has more defeats in lge one and two than any other manager in our 150 year History

Evatt is the only manager to have managed us for five seasons in leagues one and two making statistically the worst manager in Boltons History.

For what its worth i thought he was the right manager at the time FV took over and then had a further two decent seasons until his one trick/way of playing got found out 

To me, Evatt increasingly came across as a desperate man who couldn’t handle it when things weren’t going well. Started around the time of Emmagate.

But the weakness and desperation he showed at times when things weren’t going well tends to lend weight to the idea that he was manipulable by others in positions of power e.g. Markham and reacted the way he did to try to reassert his image of authority. 
IMO

As for “mercurial” players - we haven’t had any for years and I include Dapo in that. What we have had is plenty of players who seem to have believed their own hype and as a result have ignored managers instructions to do their own thing, not been team players or been lazy.

I agree that Evatt didn’t come across as being someone with the skills to bring out the best in them. I got the impression he wanted to be their buddy rather than their boss - but again, just my opinion.

His head went after Wigan and Blackpool. That was when the shit hit the fan. People at the club say they literally had to talk him down from the ceiling.

He started smashing the ale too hence him ballooning to about 20 stone.

Those 2 results fucked us for the next 18 months, we never recovered. He never recovered. His relationship with the weak minded bastards never recovered.

23 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Right, but it was you who brought managerial win rate into the equation and you were also speculating on Evatt's decision making

Correction - I was suggesting nobody other than Evatt’s shrink could speculate about his decision making with any degree of insight. And yet so many people tell us the workings of his mind with a degree of certainty every day.

FWIW my amateur psychological analysis is that he was/ became an insecure man who wanted to be loved and admired as he once had been as a player.

16 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

No i strongly disagree with your thoughts on Evatt and his win ratio........It is very easy to spin anything or any % win 

What are my thoughts on the win ratio stat then? It’s just a fact in a world of speculation.
 

Wasn’t me who extrapolated all that nonsense about somehow suggesting he was our best manager.

Edited June 19, 2025Jun 19 by Wanderlust

15 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

To me, Evatt increasingly came across as a desperate man who couldn’t handle it when things weren’t going well. Started around the time of Emmagate.

But the weakness and desperation he showed at times when things weren’t going well tends to lend weight to the idea that he was manipulable by others in positions of power e.g. Markham and reacted the way he did to try to reassert his image of authority. 
IMO

As for “mercurial” players - we haven’t had any for years and I include Dapo in that. What we have had is plenty of players who seem to have believed their own hype and as a result have ignored managers instructions to do their own thing, not been team players or been lazy.

I agree that Evatt didn’t come across as being someone with the skills to bring out the best in them. I got the impression he wanted to be their buddy rather than their boss - but again, just my opinion.

Fuck me are you his dad ? 

I thought this was the transfer thread not a debate between the evatt lovers and haters FFS

Just now, Big E said:

Fuck me are you his dad ? 

Maybe…I did put it around a bit back in the day 😎