paulhanley Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 5 hours ago, Jol_BWFC said: I’ve got a couple of polo shirts from Banana Republic, but I’m not a huge fan of the rest of their range TBH. I’m of the view (as many others are) that this decision should never have been put directly to the public. It should have been made by the elected Parliament. If they had decided to leave then it would still have been a decision made democratically, but not by people who lick windows as a passtime. If ever saw the sanctimonious remain arrogance distilled in to one paragraph this is it. Don't let people have a vote - they might decide something I/we disagree with. We're one step away from disenfranchising people here on the grounds that they have been deemed "too stupid". A technocracy, a plutocracy, a geniocracy, a noocracy. Elements of this attitude verge on all these forms of governance. It's not an attitude that is compatible with living in a democracy society though. We had a referendum on whether to stay in just after joining. And on such a momentous issue we had a vote on leaving - a long overdue vote given how changed an animal the EU was compared to the EEC we joined. The problem is you just can't compute the result. Parliament is supposed to reflect the wishes of the people - otherwise what's the point in having it? What's the point in democracy if it isn't based on governance mechanisms that deliver what the majority asked for? And parliament clearly does not do so on this issue. It speaks volumes about people who think democracy can in any way involve not allowing "people who lick windows for a passtime" their say. In effect you're saying 'anybody who disagrees with me is thick' or 'an extremist'. This type of stuff is every bit as bad as racism, sexism and any other ism you would care to mention. This is liberal intolerance writ large and precisely the mindset from which ills of our modern day culture like no platforming emerge. Its shameful. It's not Brexit that has to be stopped - it's this type of dangerous attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 23 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: You started all if this off 3 years saying we shouldn't pay a penny and we end up agreeing to pay £39b, it's for the birds if you think we are going to get away without paying every penny of that £39b. But I did not say we wouldn’t have to pay a penny, you are now making stuff up. Sad really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol_BWFC Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: You just did earlier. And confirmed it with this. You would not have uttered a word about the sense of it, had a remain vote been achieved, save for complimenting intelligent folk for doing so. Just mardy. Where did I say it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bolty58 Posted May 31, 2019 Members Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Mounts Kipper said: But I did not say we wouldn’t have to pay a penny, you are now making stuff up. Sad really. Not sad, hysterical. They are becoming more shrill and more desperate as every day passes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 minute ago, paulhanley said: If ever saw the sanctimonious remain arrogance distilled in to one paragraph this is it. Don't let people have a vote - they might decide something I/we disagree with. We're one step away from disenfranchising people here on the grounds that they have been deemed "too stupid". A technocracy, a plutocracy, a geniocracy, a noocracy. Elements of this attitude verge on all these forms of governance. It's not an attitude that is compatible with living in a democracy society though. We had a referendum on whether to stay in just after joining. And on such a momentous issue we had a vote on leaving - a long overdue vote given how changed an animal the EU was compared to the EEC we joined. The problem is you just can't compute the result. Parliament is supposed to reflect the wishes of the people - otherwise what's the point in having it? What's the point in democracy if it isn't based on governance mechanisms that deliver what the majority asked for? And parliament clearly does not do so on this issue. It speaks volumes about people who think democracy can in any way involve not allowing "people who lick windows for a passtime" their say. In effect you're saying 'anybody who disagrees with me is thick' or 'an extremist'. This type of stuff is every bit as bad as racism, sexism and any other ism you would care to mention. This is liberal intolerance writ large and precisely the mindset from which ills of our modern day culture like no platforming emerge. Its shameful. It's not Brexit that has to be stopped - it's this type of dangerous attitude. No matter how many big words you use the electorate were given a view of a post Brexit world that wasn't reality that is why the remain vote now a bigger % than the leave. Some voters are realising they have been duped and are voting accordingly. You won't ever admit Dominic Cummings said as much... FACT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol_BWFC Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, paulhanley said: If ever saw the sanctimonious remain arrogance distilled in to one paragraph this is it. Don't let people have a vote - they might decide something I/we disagree with. We're one step away from disenfranchising people here on the grounds that they have been deemed "too stupid". A technocracy, a plutocracy, a geniocracy, a noocracy. Elements of this attitude verge on all these forms of governance. It's not an attitude that is compatible with living in a democracy society though. We had a referendum on whether to stay in just after joining. And on such a momentous issue we had a vote on leaving - a long overdue vote given how changed an animal the EU was compared to the EEC we joined. The problem is you just can't compute the result. Parliament is supposed to reflect the wishes of the people - otherwise what's the point in having it? What's the point in democracy if it isn't based on governance mechanisms that deliver what the majority asked for? And parliament clearly does not do so on this issue. It speaks volumes about people who think democracy can in any way involve not allowing "people who lick windows for a passtime" their say. In effect you're saying 'anybody who disagrees with me is thick' or 'an extremist'. This type of stuff is every bit as bad as racism, sexism and any other ism you would care to mention. This is liberal intolerance writ large and precisely the mindset from which ills of our modern day culture like no platforming emerge. Its shameful. It's not Brexit that has to be stopped - it's this type of dangerous attitude. What absolute tosh. Long words and lots of waffle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said: But I did not say we wouldn’t have to pay a penny, you are now making stuff up. Sad really. You said we shouldn't pay them a penny on lots of occasions. Put the argument this way, if i said to you at the outset that we would end up paying a divorce bill of £39b you would have laughed me out of town but that's the reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: You said we shouldn't pay them a penny on lots of occasions. Put the argument this way, if i said to you at the outset that we would end up paying a divorce bill of £39b you would have laughed me out of town but that's the reality. I’ve said we should pay our commitments only if we don’t get a deal. In reality you just make stuff up. Edited May 31, 2019 by Mounts Kipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Just now, Mounts Kipper said: I’ve said we should pay our commitments only if we don’t get a deal. In reality you just make stuff up. If we get a deal or not our commitments are £39b, why would we have negotiated anything different? Yeah, let's give the EU £10b extra than we actually owe, that makes real sense. we owe £39b and there is nothing to convince me otherwise that is what the EU will expect before any free trade deal is ratified by the EU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jol_BWFC said: What absolute tosh. Long words and lots of waffle. You are a citizen of the post democratic age. You can't cope with election or referendum results that go against your world view. Try arguing against what I said instead of dismissing it. Aren't us window-licking leave voters allowed to use long words? Does it confound you when we do so? Just like it confounds you when you are on the losing side in a referendum? Edited May 31, 2019 by paulhanley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon boy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said: It is perfectly congruent to think Brexit is a mad idea and that a vote for it by the public equally mad... If you think Brexit is a bad idea and believe that, the outcome of a public vote has little to no bearing on your opinion or belief. One of the most banal Brexiteer habits is to shout about not being listened to, whilst in the same breath complaining that remainers are still pointing out why Brexit is a bad idea...you can't have it both ways..... ‘If you thinkBrexit is a good idea and believe that’ the opinion of a few Democracy deniers on a forum is irrelevant The will of the people will carry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Salford Trotter said: No matter how many big words you use the electorate were given a view of a post Brexit world that wasn't reality that is why the remain vote now a bigger % than the leave. Some voters are realising they have been duped and are voting accordingly. You won't ever admit Dominic Cummings said as much... FACT The remain vote is not bigger than leave. You've no evidence of anything of the sort. The last time a referendum was held on this issue directly asking the question leave or stay, leave won. Now that is a categorical fact. The electorate were given a view of a post Brexit world that does not fit in with your pro-EU, pro-corporatist, anti-democratic world view comfort zone. They opted to vote for it in greater numbers than vote against it. So enmeshed in your own rectitude are you that you were and continue to be confounded by this. Hence your straw clutching attempts to create a parallel reality. You lost. Get over it. Seek counselling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Salford Trotter said: If we get a deal or not our commitments are £39b, why would we have negotiated anything different? Yeah, let's give the EU £10b extra than we actually owe, that makes real sense. we owe £39b and there is nothing to convince me otherwise that is what the EU will expect before any free trade deal is ratified by the EU I’m sorry, that isn’t accurate. We don’t owe them £39bn, that was an estimate that was agreed upon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, Moon boy said: ‘If you thinkBrexit is a good idea and believe that’ the opinion of a few Democracy deniers on a forum is irrelevant The will of the people will carry Thinking Brexit is a terrible idea does not make anyone a democracy denier. The people using that sort of language haven't a clue what democracy is or they'd refrain from such profound nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon boy Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Thinking Brexit is a terrible idea does not make anyone a democracy denier. The people using that sort of language haven't a clue what democracy is or they'd refrain from such profound nonsense. Not accepting the result of a Democratic vote makes you a ‘Democracy denier’ You can think it’s a bad idea but you should accept the result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 30 minutes ago, paulhanley said: The remain vote is not bigger than leave. You've no evidence of anything of the sort. The last time a referendum was held on this issue directly asking the question leave or stay, leave won. Now that is a categorical fact. The electorate were given a view of a post Brexit world that does not fit in with your pro-EU, pro-corporatist, anti-democratic world view comfort zone. They opted to vote for it in greater numbers than vote against it. So enmeshed in your own rectitude are you that you were and continue to be confounded by this. Hence your straw clutching attempts to create a parallel reality. You lost. Get over it. Seek counselling. Remain vote in the latest EU election was greater than the Leave vote, not what you want to hear but true nonetheless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mounts Kipper Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: Remain vote in the latest EU election was greater than the Leave vote, not what you want to hear but true nonetheless Was it? I dispute that fact, and even if it was true does that trump the original referendum (which was much larger vote) just because it fits with your opinion. Think PH is right seek some sort of counselling. Edited May 31, 2019 by Mounts Kipper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 21 minutes ago, boltondiver said: I’m sorry, that isn’t accurate. We don’t owe them £39bn, that was an estimate that was agreed upon. That was a negotiated settlement based on what our commitments were valued at. Why on earth would we agree on a figure that was plucked out of the air. I wasn't there but i can guess that there was a detailed breakdown of how that number was arrived at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhanley Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Salford Trotter said: Remain vote in the latest EU election was greater than the Leave vote, not what you want to hear but true nonetheless You've clearly seen in to the minds of all of the Conservative and Labour voters to create this impartial analysis of the EU election of yours. What a clever man you are. As ever the remain voters have startling intellect and insight way beyond that of the hopes and dreams of us window-lickers on the leave side. How could we ever have thought we could compete in debate with such incomparable wisdom. EU referendum. Leave or remain. 52/48 in favour of leave. It's not what you want to hear but true nonetheless. Google it and see for yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, paulhanley said: You've clearly seen in to the minds of all of the Conservative and Labour voters to create this impartial analysis of the EU election of yours. What a clever man you are. As ever the remain voters have startling intellect and insight way beyond that of the hopes and dreams of us window-lickers on the leave side. How could we ever have thought we could compete in debate with such incomparable wisdom. EU referendum. Leave or remain. 52/48 in favour of leave. It's not what you want to hear but true nonetheless. Google it and see for yourself. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/27/remain-hard-brexit-what-uk-european-election-results-tell-us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Not accepting the result of a Democratic vote makes you a ‘Democracy denier’ You can think it’s a bad idea but you should accept the result What does that mean? "Accept the result". I think its a terrible idea and will continue to say so and to explain why. I accept the vote was to leave. Do you think that vote should change my opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, paulhanley said: You've clearly seen in to the minds of all of the Conservative and Labour voters to create this impartial analysis of the EU election of yours. What a clever man you are. As ever the remain voters have startling intellect and insight way beyond that of the hopes and dreams of us window-lickers on the leave side. How could we ever have thought we could compete in debate with such incomparable wisdom. EU referendum. Leave or remain. 52/48 in favour of leave. It's not what you want to hear but true nonetheless. Google it and see for yourself. Please share your analysis, i'd be interested to see it how that has apportioned the Labour and Tory voters other than it was in their manifesto, which is a bollocks way of apportioning votes https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/27/won-uks-european-elections-leave-remain/ https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-were-the-european-elections-a-victory-for-leavers-or-remainers Edited May 31, 2019 by Salford Trotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: That was a negotiated settlement based on what our commitments were valued at. Why on earth would we agree on a figure that was plucked out of the air. I wasn't there but i can guess that there was a detailed breakdown of how that number was arrived at. It was an estimate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, boltondiver said: It was an estimate What was the estimate based on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: What was the estimate based on? A consolidation of smaller estimates Edited May 31, 2019 by boltondiver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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