Politics

[Boby Brno]

The European Elections were not a second referendum. For those thinking it was, that polls chap John Curtice, after analysing the results, reckoned that we are just as divided as we were 3 years ago. So little difference that he could not predict the result of a second referendum. So what have we learned? Absolutely nothing. 

 

[miamiwhite]

1 hour ago, Salford Trotter said:

I am not being a dick, what have i said that is incorrect? I have acknowledged that TBP had the biggest single vote but other parties represented different positions on Brexit. In my view and some political journalists took the same view that the Remain side secured more votes that's all. Stop getting your knickers in a twist. 

It's not what you want to hear but that's the way it goes... Have a great evening mate😂

 

Remain side secured more votes ?

Hmmm.....think again on that and who they actually represent beforehand and will do afterwards.

 

As for political journalists, no need to ask which biased bog roll you peruse.

Regardless of all this...I’ll ask you another question....has it changed the result of the vote in 2016 ?

The answer is a resounding big fuck off NO.....get used to it pal, the train is leaving.

Enjoy drowning your sorrows as always chum

 

[Salford Trotter]

41 minutes ago, miamiwhite said:

Remain side secured more votes ?

Hmmm.....think again on that and who they actually represent beforehand and will do afterwards.

 

As for political journalists, no need to ask which biased bog roll you peruse.

Regardless of all this...I’ll ask you another question....has it changed the result of the vote in 2016 ?

The answer is a resounding big fuck off NO.....get used to it pal, the train is leaving.

Enjoy drowning your sorrows as always chum

 

Read the links Si, that might help you understand where i am coming from. If you don't agree with me that's fine but at least show me the facts, links or analysis that prove otherwise. I even checked Brexit Central and even they couldn't muster up and argument to show they won the popular vote, yeah they won the largest single party % and i accept that. 

Contrary to your assertion i haven't been drinking but now you mention it i will pop out for a beer.. 🍻 😂😂

Edited May 31, 2019 by Salford Trotter

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Read the links Si, that might help you understand where i am coming from. If you don't agree with me that's fine but at least show me the facts, links or analysis that prove otherwise. I even checked Brexit Central and even they couldn't muster up and argument to show they won the popular vote, yeah they won the largest single party % and i accept that. 

Contrary to your assertion i haven't been drinking but now you mention it i will pop out for a beer.. 🍻 😂😂

I simply ask;

why does it matter?

[Mounts Kipper]

2 hours ago, Boby Brno said:

The European Elections were not a second referendum. For those thinking it was, that polls chap John Curtice, after analysing the results, reckoned that we are just as divided as we were 3 years ago. So little difference that he could not predict the result of a second referendum. So what have we learned? Absolutely nothing. 

 

We’ve learned it would be utter stupidity to consider another referendum on leave or stay. Someone better let Cable know. 

[Ani]

To say the EU elections mean the referendum vote is in question is like saying the winner of the Grand Prix is the guy who did the fastest lap. 

[Ani]

4 hours ago, paulhanley said:

Thanks. Point by point in answer. 

* To those of us who voted leave it really is much clearer. We want to be able to set our own laws, set our own policies and finances and make our own way in the world as a nation state - completely free of the EU. We're happy to have a good strong trading relationship with our European nation state neighbours. I personally would prefer this to be on a bi-lateral basis with individual European nation states because the EU sucks the life out of economic prosperity with its wearying regulation and corporatism - but the EU is there so we have to deal with it.

* A referendum very rarely has a place in the democratic process - but there are exceptions. I'd say this is very definitely one, for two reasons. 1. We'd had a referendum to confirm our membership - and the EU has evolved way beyond what we voted to join. 2. The question of our relationship with the EU does not run in a linear way along party lines, which means it cannot be adequately dealt with at general elections. 

* I agree re the political parties. It is a sad state of affairs that we live in an era absent of political heavyweights - just at the time when we need strong leadership.

* It doesn't have to be a total mess. We just need some clear leadership and someone who'll be tough with the EU's negotiaters. Around that table, quite frankly, we need to follow their negotiating example. You're right to say that 52/48 is a comparitively close result - a bit closer for instance than the Scottish independence referendum. But neither was it wafer thin. 1.3m votes is a close but clear margin. As such it's about time remoaners (as opposed to reasoned remainers of your own profile) stopped toxifying the political climate.

As said I respect your views. But how you know what voting leave meant to everyone else is simply not true. 

The referendum has no place in our democratic process. That is why it was advisory. The fact we are now held to account for the result probably explains why it has no place. 

Political parties WE AGREE !!!!

and that is why it is a mess. We have no one credible or strong to drive a successful negotiation. 

You know leaving has inherent risks. To manage those risks we need strong leadership. Which we both Know we are sadly lacking. 

 

Been drinking so apologies if the above makes no sense. 

[Guest]

The man;

It's vital we exit the EU and earn a good majority. If I stand, I stand to win

[Salford Trotter]

3 hours ago, boltondiver said:

I simply ask;

why does it matter?

I genuinely believe the mood has changed with Brexit as voters have started to understand the implications of leaving. I get that elements of each side of the debate have hardened to the extremities but all the obvious signs of change are there. Polls over the last couple of years are shifting including the EU vote and i showed the analysis to back it up. I get that leavers find that hard to accept, it's either the 2016 result or nothing but surely you can accept that voters change their minds and that with reflection they want a different outcome, a brexit with a deal for instance rather than jumping off the cliff edge. All i asked tonight was for you and others to show me evidence to the contrary and you couldn't or chose not to. I didn't insult anybody nor call them thick or accuse them of being drunk but asked a genuine question and i am still waiting for a response

Edit: i have had 3 pints of Holts Crystal Lager if that makes a difference😁

Edited June 1, 2019 by Salford Trotter

[Cheese]

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Salford Trotter said:

I genuinely believe the mood has changed with Brexit as voters have started to understand the implications of leaving. I get that elements of each side of the debate have hardened to the extremities but all the obvious signs of change are there. Polls over the last couple of years are shifting including the EU vote and i showed the analysis to back it up. I get that leavers find that hard to accept, it's either the 2016 result or nothing but surely you can accept that voters change their minds and that with reflection they want a different outcome, a brexit with a deal for instance rather than jumping off the cliff edge. All i asked tonight was for you and others to show me evidence to the contrary and you couldn't or chose not to. I didn't insult anybody nor call them thick or accuse them of being drunk but asked a genuine question and i am still waiting for a response

Edit: i have had 3 pints of Holts Crystal Lager if that makes a difference😁

Fine

I’m pleased for you that you feel that way

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Cheese said:

 

The ultimate conman 

[kent_white]

7 hours ago, Cheese said:

 

I've never understood why this doesn't just make intuitive sense to people. 

[paulhanley]

9 hours ago, Ani said:

As said I respect your views. But how you know what voting leave meant to everyone else is simply not true. 

The referendum has no place in our democratic process. That is why it was advisory. The fact we are now held to account for the result probably explains why it has no place. 

Political parties WE AGREE !!!!

and that is why it is a mess. We have no one credible or strong to drive a successful negotiation. 

You know leaving has inherent risks. To manage those risks we need strong leadership. Which we both Know we are sadly lacking. 

 

Been drinking so apologies if the above makes no sense. 

I would say that there are common themes among all leave voters. The belief in the nation state being the upper limit of democracy, that we can and will be better off economically and as a healthy democracy when we wholly manage our own affairs and that the EU is unaccountable, distant and beholden to corporatism. Reasonable remainers will generally argue "we must stay in and reform" ... to which the answer is we've tried until we are dateless. That's why so many of us are fed up of it and want to leave.

We can but hope that from this clutch of Tory leadership hopefuls there's someone fairly near the start of their political career who is now going to rise to the top and fill the void. It's far from impossible. Margaret Thatcher would never have been described as a major force in the Conservative party in the mid-1970s. As we know from football unproven doesn't mean lack of potential. 

As for inherent risks .... to my mind (and as I've said on here many times) the greater risk is staying in and being unhappily bound up to a federalist political project and an over-regulated economic project that will kill wealth and widen the gap between decision makers and the populace. 

 

[Mounts Kipper]

10 hours ago, Ani said:

To say the EU elections mean the referendum vote is in question is like saying the winner of the Grand Prix is the guy who did the fastest lap. 

You miss the point, the EU election results show that there would be a very similar outcome to the first vote should there be another referendum, surely that would be a pointless exercise.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Ani]

14 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

You miss the point, the EU election results show that there would be a very similar outcome to the first vote should there be another referendum, surely that would be a pointless exercise.

No you have totally missed my point. I am saying that whatever the split the vote is not relevant. 

[Farrelli]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

I've never understood why this doesn't just make intuitive sense to people. 

Absolutely. We will be much stronger economically as part of the EU and the EU will be stronger with the UK in it. I hope sense prevails.

[Ani]

51 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

I would say that there are common themes among all leave voters. The belief in the nation state being the upper limit of democracy, that we can and will be better off economically and as a healthy democracy when we wholly manage our own affairs and that the EU is unaccountable, distant and beholden to corporatism. Reasonable remainers will generally argue "we must stay in and reform" ... to which the answer is we've tried until we are dateless. That's why so many of us are fed up of it and want to leave.

We can but hope that from this clutch of Tory leadership hopefuls there's someone fairly near the start of their political career who is now going to rise to the top and fill the void. It's far from impossible. Margaret Thatcher would never have been described as a major force in the Conservative party in the mid-1970s. As we know from football unproven doesn't mean lack of potential. 

As for inherent risks .... to my mind (and as I've said on here many times) the greater risk is staying in and being unhappily bound up to a federalist political project and an over-regulated economic project that will kill wealth and widen the gap between decision makers and the populace. 

 

So our real point of difference is that I think we would be better off as part of a flawed EU than on our own. And we can only speculate on how that turns out. 

On the leadership side I hope you are right but I have yet to see it. The comparison to a Thatcher is that whatever you thought of her she was ‘not for turning’ whereas other than JRM (who is just a strange man) the rest seem to say whatever the current audience want to hear. 

[paulhanley]

8 minutes ago, Ani said:

So our real point of difference is that I think we would be better off as part of a flawed EU than on our own. And we can only speculate on how that turns out. 

On the leadership side I hope you are right but I have yet to see it. The comparison to a Thatcher is that whatever you thought of her she was ‘not for turning’ whereas other than JRM (who is just a strange man) the rest seem to say whatever the current audience want to hear. 

We wouldn't be on our own - we'd be trading with the whole world as well as with the EU. The world is so vastly different to when we joined the EEC.

But anyway...... let me test you out on a couple of things which I've been thinking for a while and which  I am pleased to see the Brexit Party has begun articulating since their formation: 

1. Post-independence and free of the EUs stultifying template of regulation  and corporatism we have to do all we can to restore the lost link between people and power, a lost link that is at the root of much of the current dissatisfaction in this country. The English regions need to be given a lot more responsibility for their own economic growth along with the ability to directly benefit from that economic growth. Local/regional politicians could therefore be held  directly accountable at elections for the health/wealth of the local economy and the policies they've implemented to try to achieve that success. As part of that I believe the regions of England need their own USP in trading with the whole of the world. At the minute this country is very imbalanced - only three regions contribute more than they get back from the Exchequer - London, the South-East and the East. Lots of economic potential lost locally and nationally.

2. We need to abolish the House of Lords. As people who talk about the loss of democratic accountability via the EU we can't then seek to defend a wholly unelected second chamber. It is a relic of a bygone age and needs to go.

[Salford Trotter]

2 hours ago, boltondiver said:

Fine

I’m pleased for you that you feel that way

Thank you and more importantly the majority who voted on 23rd May feel the same way. Have a great day

[MalcolmW]

1 hour ago, Ani said:

So our real point of difference is that I think we would be better off as part of a flawed EU than on our own. And we can only speculate on how that turns out. 

On the leadership side I hope you are right but I have yet to see it. The comparison to a Thatcher is that whatever you thought of her she was ‘not for turning’ whereas other than JRM (who is just a strange man) the rest seem to say whatever the current audience want to hear. 

"Not for turning" was a great soundbite but it simply wasn't true.

On Europe she campaigned for EEC membership in 1975, but then when she had to deal with the bureaucrats herself and realised their true aims she turned 180 degrees.

Likewise she was the first world leader to be persuaded of the climate change issue, but in due course she turned against the international policies in which we would lead but few follow. I'm not saying she was right or wrong but the definitely turned to face the opposite way. Again.

There were other issues where she modified her views in response to cogent arguments from ministers, but most of them were too weak to even try and put a counter case.

[Mounts Kipper]

1 hour ago, Salford Trotter said:

Thank you and more importantly the majority who voted on 23rd May feel the same way. Have a great day

Pity for you 23rd May wasn’t 23rd June. That’s the only vote that really matters. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Casino]

Mounts wrote, every day for 17 years

I have nowt to come back with but blah blah blah, we won, you lost, tough shit

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Salford Trotter said:

Thank you and more importantly the majority who voted on 23rd May feel the same way. Have a great day

And you, pal!

[Salford Trotter]

1 hour ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Pity for you 23rd May wasn’t 23rd June. That’s the only vote that really matters. 

The votes in parliament are pretty important too