Politics

[ZiggyStardust]

20 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Of course Remain will be an option 

A 2nd refrendum has been in the EU's playbook from day one, see Denmark 1992/93 Ireland 2001/02 & Ireland 2008/09. A bone will be offered (Maybe even the items Cameron asked for 5 years ago), and a 2nd referendum will be won. And if not, there will be a 3rd, 4th and if need 5th, until Remain wins. Meanwhile, parliament will ensure that no-deal cannot take place, and the EU will ensure that an acceptable leave seal is not offered, and the circle will continue. 

Remainers would then show this as 'proof' that they were right all along.

[Mounts Kipper]

17 minutes ago, ZiggyStardust said:

A 2nd refrendum has been in the EU's playbook from day one, see Denmark 1992/93 Ireland 2001/02 & Ireland 2008/09. A bone will be offered (Maybe even the items Cameron asked for 5 years ago), and a 2nd referendum will be won. And if not, there will be a 3rd, 4th and if need 5th, until Remain wins. Meanwhile, parliament will ensure that no-deal cannot take place, and the EU will ensure that an acceptable leave seal is not offered, and the circle will continue. 

Remainers would then show this as 'proof' that they were right all along.

Precisely, but I think this has gone too far, the U.K. has a substantial hard core of leavers that are not going anywhere,  thwy will continue to create havoc if we’re somehow kept in the European Union, Brexit party would continue to create more problems within the EU,  I’m sure the EU don’t want that and I strongly suspect a deal will be forthcoming. 

[Salford Trotter]

15 minutes ago, ZiggyStardust said:

A 2nd refrendum has been in the EU's playbook from day one, see Denmark 1992/93 Ireland 2001/02 & Ireland 2008/09. A bone will be offered (Maybe even the items Cameron asked for 5 years ago), and a 2nd referendum will be won. And if not, there will be a 3rd, 4th and if need 5th, until Remain wins. Meanwhile, parliament will ensure that no-deal cannot take place, and the EU will ensure that an acceptable leave seal is not offered, and the circle will continue. 

Remainers would then show this as 'proof' that they were right all along.

I don't agree with your analogy however I would say that if a second referendum was put to the people it has to have remain as one of two options with the other being No Deal. That way the options are very clear, much clearer than they were in 2016. 

Having said that I have maintained all along that the Leave campaign was 100% about leaving in a managed way with a sensible withdrawal deal and I would be content if that happened. Remember that the difficult bit is yet to come

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, ZiggyStardust said:

A 2nd refrendum has been in the EU's playbook from day one, see Denmark 1992/93 Ireland 2001/02 & Ireland 2008/09. A bone will be offered (Maybe even the items Cameron asked for 5 years ago), and a 2nd referendum will be won. And if not, there will be a 3rd, 4th and if need 5th, until Remain wins. Meanwhile, parliament will ensure that no-deal cannot take place, and the EU will ensure that an acceptable leave seal is not offered, and the circle will continue. 

Remainers would then show this as 'proof' that they were right all along.

Its amazing, ridiculous and virtually unbelievable that people will believe there is a widespread conspiracy across the EU, British politicians and British Courts to force a 2nd referendum rather than look at the more obvious and clear truth that Brexit was built on a mountain of lies and the promised easy deal with no downsides Brexit was never ever deliverable. That any Brexit has an impact on the pound and GDP and any Brexit is very complicated and will not ever be pain free. 

Its quite clear that whilst there were always, always parliamentary members who wanted to remain no matter what (as you'd expect given that 48% of the voters wanted to) they voted for triggering A50 and the mood amongst MPs significantly changed when the government themselves said that any Brexit would have a negative impact on the economy.  Once the government who are desperately trying to sell their deal are being forced to reveal said  projections it changed the position many MPs were in. 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Its amazing, ridiculous and virtually unbelievable that people will believe there is a widespread conspiracy across the EU, British politicians and British Courts to force a 2nd referendum rather than look at the more obvious and clear truth that Brexit was built on a mountain of lies and the promised easy deal with no downsides Brexit was never ever deliverable. That any Brexit has an impact on the pound and GDP and any Brexit is very complicated and will not ever be pain free. 

Its quite clear that whilst there were always, always parliamentary members who wanted to remain no matter what (as you'd expect given that 48% of the voters wanted to) they voted for triggering A50 and the mood amongst MPs significantly changed when the government themselves said that any Brexit would have a negative impact on the economy.  Once the government who are desperately trying to sell their deal are being forced to reveal said  projections it changed the position many MPs were in. 

You are just making up nonsense, as per usual; rewriting history

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

You are just making up nonsense, as per usual; rewriting history

Because all you read and consume yourself with is propaganda. 

There is no mass conspiracy. Brexit is not what was promised in the referendum. Its demonstrably nothing like. 

You cannot escape those facts. You have the government planning for potentially a medicines shortage - and at the same time telling everyone that is "project fear". We're in a completely different point now. The government have been forced to release their economic and operational projections and both are very very different to what was promised. You cannot in any way deny that. The spin about worst case scenarios and "nobody knows" doesn't change the fact that this is what the government are actually wargaming for. Now that people know this I think its ridiculous to suggest it wouldn't change their views as MPs. And whether it changes the public's view is the test we need to find out. 

 

[Mounts Kipper]

28 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Because all you read and consume yourself with is propaganda. 

There is no mass conspiracy. Brexit is not what was promised in the referendum. Its demonstrably nothing like. 

You cannot escape those facts. You have the government planning for potentially a medicines shortage - and at the same time telling everyone that is "project fear". We're in a completely different point now. The government have been forced to release their economic and operational projections and both are very very different to what was promised. You cannot in any way deny that. The spin about worst case scenarios and "nobody knows" doesn't change the fact that this is what the government are actually wargaming for. Now that people know this I think its ridiculous to suggest it wouldn't change their views as MPs. And whether it changes the public's view is the test we need to find out. 

 

WTF you papping on about the government sent out a leaflet (lies) outlining all these issues before we voted, we still voted leave, that is why your view point is absolutely ridiculous, the people had all the information, and the truth is no one knows exactly how it will pan out either way, the fact remains leave won and that hasn’t been delivered as promised in the referendum and as qualified by the last election result.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

WTF you papping on about the government sent out a leaflet (lies) outlining all these issues before we voted, we still voted leave, that is why your view point is absolutely ridiculous, the people had all the information, and the truth is no one knows exactly how it will pan out either way, the fact remains leave won and that hasn’t been delivered as promised in the referendum and as qualified by the last  election result. 

This is the leaflet.

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160813202549/https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

Given you are not at all lying or trying to revise history can you please point out where it says anything about potentially needing to plan for "medicines shortages"?

I'm also struggling to find much in there that hasn't actually proven to be quite accurate. But there we go. In fact the governments claim that a good deal would be hard to come by and take time vs Brexiteers "we'll get an ace deal in months".....hmmm...

The facts I'm afraid do not support much if any of your blather. 

[Mounts Kipper]

6 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

This is the leaflet.

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160813202549/https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

Given you are not at all lying or trying to revise history can you please point out where it says anything about potentially needing to plan for "medicines shortages"?

I'm also struggling to find much in there that hasn't actually proven to be quite accurate. But there we go. In fact the governments claim that a good deal would be hard to come by and take time vs Brexiteers "we'll get an ace deal in months".....hmmm...

The facts I'm afraid do not support much if any of your blather. 

Perhaps it’s not in the leaflet because it’s not true. You need to stop listening to labour and snp liars. 

[ZiggyStardust]

5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

This is the leaflet.

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160813202549/https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.pdf

Given you are not at all lying or trying to revise history can you please point out where it says anything about potentially needing to plan for "medicines shortages"?

I'm also struggling to find much in there that hasn't actually proven to be quite accurate. But there we go. In fact the governments claim that a good deal would be hard to come by and take time vs Brexiteers "we'll get an ace deal in months".....hmmm...

The facts I'm afraid do not support much if any of your blather. 

Quote

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.

Found one. And its a biggie. 

[Guest]

Just now, Mounts Kipper said:

Perhaps it’s not in the leaflet because it’s not true. You need to stop listening to labour and snp liars. 

What are you on about? The government were forced into releasing their no deal preparations which included work on medicines with a risk of shortages identified. 

 

[Guest]

Just now, ZiggyStardust said:

Found one. And its a biggie. 

The PM resigned- then the new one decided to hold a GE then brought a deal back that their own party couldn't agree on - then changed their leader and now have tried to close down parliament unlawfully. 

So I'm  not sure that the government at the time could have forseen that mess. They did say any deal would not be great and be difficult to obtain. The Brexit argument said that was "project fear". I know who is the clear winner on predictions. 

[Mounts Kipper]

2 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

What are you on about? The government were forced into releasing their no deal preparations which included work on medicines with a risk of shortages identified. 

 

You really are a silly billy, yellow hammer is a document to highlight potential problems so that the government can mitigate them and mitigate them they will. 

[ZiggyStardust]

2 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The PM resigned- then the new one decided to hold a GE then brought a deal back that their own party couldn't agree on - then changed their leader and now have tried to close down parliament unlawfully. 

So I'm  not sure that the government at the time could have forseen that mess. They did say any deal would not be great and be difficult to obtain. The Brexit argument said that was "project fear". I know who is the clear winner on predictions. 

Have the government implemented the result ? Yes or No. One word answer.

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, Mounts Kipper said:

You really are a silly billy, yellow hammer is a document to highlight potential problems so that the government can mitigate them and mitigate them they will. 

Doesn't count.

Unless of course, if they had done nothing, he'd be hanging on about them for not having done so.

A couple of sound bites, and it's gospel. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

You really are a silly billy, yellow hammer is a document to highlight potential problems so that the government can mitigate them and mitigate them they will. 

Its their risk planning for no deal. I'm asking where anyone said medicine supplies would be at risk and require mitigation? You claimed that was in the government leaflet. Either point it out or admit you lied. 

[Moon boy]

28 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Its their risk planning for no deal. I'm asking where anyone said medicine supplies would be at risk and require mitigation? You claimed that was in the government leaflet. Either point it out or admit you lied. 

The only person who mentioned medicine supplies in the Government leaflet was you, a no deal will be dealt with properly, tomatoes and iceberg lettuce might be scarce for a week, so what

Your previous veiw that we are better with another Referendum before a GE, who would carry out the result of the Referendum 

If the Referendum went Leave a Labour/SDP Government would not carry it out

If the Referendum went Remain a Tory Government would not carry it out

Back to square one and we’ve wasted another 12 months

A GE with a majority Government would carry out the Electorate’s wishes

[Winchester White]

1 hour ago, ZiggyStardust said:

Found one. And its a biggie. 

Except it was not within that Governments power to do so, or this one.

Lets get a withdrawal deal done and start working on the actual deal.

[Sweep]

45 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

 

A GE with a majority Government would carry out the Electorate’s wishes

You would think and hope so.......but I wouldn't be so sure. There are people that will stop at nothing to prevent this ever happening

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

The only person who mentioned medicine supplies in the Government leaflet was you, a no deal will be dealt with properly, tomatoes and iceberg lettuce might be scarce for a week, so what

Your previous veiw that we are better with another Referendum before a GE, who would carry out the result of the Referendum 

If the Referendum went Leave a Labour/SDP Government would not carry it out

If the Referendum went Remain a Tory Government would not carry it out

Back to square one and we’ve wasted another 12 months

A GE with a majority Government would carry out the Electorate’s wishes

You'd make it legally binding rather than advisory. 

That way it doesn't matter who is in power. 

A GE with a majority would carry out the electorate's wishes - that simply isn't true. GE's can be won with under 40% of the electorate's vote. Even then you can't translate any GE vote to a particular Brexit outcome. Not everyone can vote for the outcome they prefer.

Who do you vote for if your preferred outcome is the WA as stands for example?

I think we need a 2nd referendum but that means as it stands I'd have to vote Labour - and I don't want to. So my vote therefore won't be a reflection of what I want. Same for millions of others. 

[Sweep]

I agree with some of that, the issue will be that your average Labour voter is as thick as mince, even in the North East, where they want to leave, they will still vote in Labour next time around, because they always have, they're too thick to correlate with a GE with Brexit.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Sweep

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Sweep said:

I agree with some of that, the issue will be that your average Labour voter is as thick as mince, even in the North East, where they want to leave, they will still vote in Labour next time around, because they always have, they're too thick to correlate with a GE with Brexit.

My point is that regardless of who or why any individual votes for or votes - the result will not be a majority of votes for one thing. The Tories may get a parliamentary majority on under 40% of votes. That doesn't answer whether the majority of country support their plan. Even many Tory voters in such a scenario might in a referendum vote for a deal exit. But vote Tory out of loyalty or because they haven't got an alternative option offering what they want. 

And as you say its the same for Labour voters - some Brexiteers might end up voting Labour - even though they don't want their Brexit option - for other reasons.

The only way to tell what the public want is another referendum. I do not agree with the Lib Dem policy of "revoking" - I would like to see if there is a public mandate for that first - even IF (and its an impossibility but lets pretend) the Lib Dems won an election - because they still would have won on less than half the votes. But my preference overall is to vote Lib Dem. But I think their Brexit policy is wrong. So I'd vote for them and be stuck with their policy. 

 

[Jol_BWFC]

19 minutes ago, Sweep said:

I agree with some of that, the issue will be that your average Labour voter is as thick as mince, even in the North East, where they want to leave, they will still vote in Labour next time around, because they always have, they're too thick to correlate with a GE with Brexit.

It depends how much they use their Facebook accounts... 💣 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

37 minutes ago, Sweep said:

I agree with some of that, the issue will be that your average Labour voter is as thick as mince, even in the North East, where they want to leave, they will still vote in Labour next time around, because they always have, they're too thick to correlate with a GE with Brexit.

But they're all racist as well. Nigel might exploit that.

[Sweep]

50 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

But they're all racist as well. Nigel might exploit that.

I don't think all Labour voters are racists at all, I don't doubt that Nigel is though