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I've just found out I played at level 13 of the pyramid when I was a kid.

Quite chuffed with that.

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4 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

I've just found out I played at level 13 of the pyramid when I was a kid.

Quite chuffed with that.

I knew a mate what came on as a sub for Appleby Frodingham in an FA cup tie in the earliest round. He never played again.:D

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Howardroark said:

On Tuesday a notification of the purchase of the Moonshift debt in respect of Inner Circle by consortium A

A formal bid for the company which delays HMRC winder

Formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan. 

On pay day- Ken accepts bid and signs over. 

 

One thing I don't quite understand, is I thought you said a change in ownership can't be made whilst a Winder is outstanding.

Wouldn't redeeming the shares amount to a change of ownership, whilst the HMRC Winder is left unpaid?

If so I understood you to say only KA (Inner Circle Investments) can pay off the winder?

If so doesn't that mean he still has a certain amount of leverage left still?

If I've understood correctly how is this dealt with?

Pay him off perhaps?

What happens if he doesn't play ball?  Isn't he a secured creditor for £5 million?  If so would he get his money even if the club was liquidated?

Also whilst this 14 day notice is being served, won't the club be insolvent - how can it trade?

The March wages would fall due within that time frame - how will they be paid whilst KA (ICI) is still the owner - at least on paper?

Can KA perhaps voluntarily agree to forego ownership within the 14 day notice period perhaps rather than trade whilst insolvent - and risk personal liability?

Thanks.

Edited by Sluffy
Added another question.

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What we've learned today.

Depends on what you believe on the internet but let us start with what we think we know -

Basran Consortium calls off deal
BBC Radio Manchester Sports reports that Forest Green owner Vince commences court action against us.
HMRC winder due on Wednesday - amount outstanding £1.2 million.
No change of ownership whilst Winder on going.
Only payment of Winder can be made by  owners of the club which still in the hands of KA (Inner Circle Investments) even though he has defaulted on Eddie Davies personal loan to him for which he put up as collateral the ownership shares.
Whatever happens KA owes Eddie Davies/Moonshine circa £8 million.
There appears to be something like £16m of secured creditors that are owed money from the club (James, Warburton, KA(?), the bank, others?) and something like £13 million of unsecured (HMRC, police, Business Rates, Heathcote, etc).
The EFL through its 'golden share' in all clubs in the league will not permit Administration taking place without the means ALL secured creditors being paid in full and all unsecured creditors paid a minimum of 25% - so whoever wants Administration needs to have something like £20 million, plus £1.5 million per month to finance the club during Admin.  KA hasn't got anything like that.  
Basran was trying to but the club by funding the money KA needs to clear off the lien on the shares (about £8 million) and come to deals with all the other creditors - seems they couldn't find enough to afford that (at least at this stage of the saga), even with James (and probably Warburton) not pushing for their secured debts.
If nothing changes at the £1.2m HMRC Winder isn't paid on Wednesday - it's liquidation.

However it needn't end that way - and almost certainly won't.

It is more likely that someone will buy the debt owed by KA to Eddie from Moonshift (probably for much less than the £8 million outstanding.  This will mean KA will still need to find £8 million to pay the new owner of his debt (as that amount won't change).  This will probably be done on the day before or even the morning of, the Winder.
A formal bid for the company will then be announced and thus delay the Winder.
Finally a formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan.
I do have one or two loose ends I can't quite tie up about this but no doubt things will be made clearer in due course - see my previous post above.

I think that is how I've understood correctly most of what I've read.

Onwards and upwards still.

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2 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

Don’t be daft 

Surely we would be going in at Confrence North, the very worst case 

One of these tin pot, jumpers for goalposts clubs would just have to step aside 

 

For all our flaws, we're a founder member of the Football League and would be by a million miles the biggest English club to go to the wall in recent memory.

It'd be a massive story and a damning indictment of the EFL. They'd want to slide us back in at a decent-ish level sharpish.

No way we'd be pissing around with pub teams and the like.

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Posted (edited)

Based on the more sage opinions there are, I’d say there’s only a 5% chance we’ll liquidate.

there are clearly interested parties who have managed to keep their dealings private (who is making the Twitter heroes really upset).

add into this that a football club that on its day can attract almost 30,000 supporters and I just cannot see a fix not being found.

youre not telling me a club suddenly playing in the northern leagues will be allowed to do so if thousands of fans are likely to show up. Think about it.

it won’t be pleasant, but we’re not going under. Just down.

 

Edited by Spider

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One thing that puzzles me is people saying the winding up petition can only be paid by the owners of the club

 

Is this something specific to football and /or HMRC ?? as I have been in this position myself and the petitioning creditor didn't give a flying fuck who paid him, as long as he got paid

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On 11/03/2019 at 20:22, stevieb said:

The questions I'm left with after reading this all day is who is Ayn Rand and HBAHT? 

 

On 11/03/2019 at 09:17, Howardroark said:

Howard Roark is a central character of Ayn Rand’s book ‘The Fountainhead’. 

 

On 11/03/2019 at 20:05, Howardroark said:

John Galt is a character in another book by Ayn Rand

 

13 hours ago, Dr Faustus said:

have this romantic idealism that a phoenix will rise from the ashes, be made up of local lads in pristine white shirts, play dazzling football and bask in glorious sun...

 

 

On 04/03/2019 at 11:28, Dr Faustus said:

I didn't choose to support BWFC- they chose me; a kid from LH on day out with his mates. I underwent a life changing experience bounding across the Burnden pitch, which catapulted me onto an unparalleled rollercoaster .

 

7 hours ago, leigh white said:

I knew a mate what came on as a sub for Appleby Frodingham in an FA cup tie in the earliest round. He never played again.:D

 

This thread is getting weirder by the day - its turning  into a real life version of one of my favourite films "Field Of Dreams "

Does anyone know if Doctor Faustus has got the landscape gardeners around at his place at the moment ?  

 

 

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7 hours ago, Sluffy said:

One thing I don't quite understand, is I thought you said a change in ownership can't be made whilst a Winder is outstanding.

Wouldn't redeeming the shares amount to a change of ownership, whilst the HMRC Winder is left unpaid?

If so I understood you to say only KA (Inner Circle Investments) can pay off the winder?

If so doesn't that mean he still has a certain amount of leverage left still?

If I've understood correctly how is this dealt with?

Pay him off perhaps?

What happens if he doesn't play ball?  Isn't he a secured creditor for £5 million?  If so would he get his money even if the club was liquidated?

Also whilst this 14 day notice is being served, won't the club be insolvent - how can it trade?

The March wages would fall due within that time frame - how will they be paid whilst KA (ICI) is still the owner - at least on paper?

Can KA perhaps voluntarily agree to forego ownership within the 14 day notice period perhaps rather than trade whilst insolvent - and risk personal liability?

Thanks.

Essentially a takeover bid would be enough to delay the winder. 

The notice period for reclaiming KA shares is 14 days but he can surrender them at any point, the 14 days is a period for him to raise the funds to pay the debt in full and retain the shares,  this would also remove the debt owed to him by the club. 

During the 14 day period I would expect the bidder to go through the EFL tests. 

In terms of paying the winder, to settle it between now and the court date it has to come from KA, that’s not to say he couldn’t be loaned funds from the bidder to pay it but the reality is that any formal bid will be enough to postpone the court hearing. 

I believe the club are now trading under a ‘validation order’ which allows them to carry out some trade but prevents them from disposing of assets under market value or transfer the shares. 

 

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15 minutes ago, bwfc2003 said:

One thing that puzzles me is people saying the winding up petition can only be paid by the owners of the club

 

Is this something specific to football and /or HMRC ?? as I have been in this position myself and the petitioning creditor didn't give a flying fuck who paid him, as long as he got paid

I think this is a translation issue, the funds can be provided by anybody, but under a WU the shares cannot be transferred which means a benefactor would have to loan the club the funds to pay it. 

Thst being said, it could be made up of donations where there is no requirement for a return. 

The crucial point in all of this is that simply paying HMRC doesn’t fix anything, there are many other creditors who will simply take over the WU proceedings using a process called ‘substitution’. Therefore the only solution is a deal that addresses all creditors who the club are in default to on their obligations.

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1 hour ago, Spider said:

Based on the more sage opinions there are, I’d say there’s only a 5% chance we’ll liquidate.

there are clearly interested parties who have managed to keep their dealings private (who is making the Twitter heroes really upset).

add into this that a football club that on its day can attract almost 30,000 supporters and I just cannot see a fix not being found.

youre not telling me a club suddenly playing in the northern leagues will be allowed to do so if thousands of fans are likely to show up. Think about it.

it won’t be pleasant, but we’re not going under. Just down.

 

I agree.  There will be a few clubs at all levels arguing we should be allowed to go to the wall, but others wary that they will be next.

I think at 5k minimum would turn for a Phoenix from the Ashes Wanderers. At least at the beginning.  This would present major safety and security issues at any club below the Conference.

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9 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

Essentially a takeover bid would be enough to delay the winder. 

The notice period for reclaiming KA shares is 14 days but he can surrender them at any point, the 14 days is a period for him to raise the funds to pay the debt in full and retain the shares,  this would also remove the debt owed to him by the club. 

During the 14 day period I would expect the bidder to go through the EFL tests. 

In terms of paying the winder, to settle it between now and the court date it has to come from KA, that’s not to say he couldn’t be loaned funds from the bidder to pay it but the reality is that any formal bid will be enough to postpone the court hearing. 

I believe the club are now trading under a ‘validation order’ which allows them to carry out some trade but prevents them from disposing of assets under market value or transfer the shares. 

 

Who is most likely to have applied for a validation order?  HMRC or one of the other creditors who suspects the kitchen sink is about to be sold?

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2 minutes ago, TrickyTrotter said:

Who is most likely to have applied for a validation order?  HMRC or one of the other creditors who suspects the kitchen sink is about to be sold?

No, the club will have applied for it, it allows them to receive funds and make specific payments out (wages), effectively to trade whilst insolvent (you are classed as insolvent when a WU petition has been lodged and remains unsettled).

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Just one point to make, it’s not a defence of KA, but he legally cannot dispose of the assets for anything other than market value, this is a condition of any Winding Up petition. 

Therefore any bid by Basran would have to reflect the value of any assets owned by the club. 

I’ve long made the point that the only way to buy the club is through Moonshift and effectively force Ken out, I have no idea why Basran didn’t do this other than a presumption that he didn’t have the cash or that he didn’t have the on-going cash to satisfy Moonshift that the club would be in good hands.

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4 minutes ago, Howardroark said:

No, the club will have applied for it, it allows them to receive funds and make specific payments out (wages), effectively to trade whilst insolvent (you are classed as insolvent when a WU petition has been lodged and remains unsettled).

Ok thanks very helpful.  

So where do uncollected direct debits fit into this?  Why haven’t the club collected these funds yet to pay off some of its debts?

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1 minute ago, TrickyTrotter said:

Ok thanks very helpful.  

So where do uncollected direct debits fit into this?  Why haven’t the club collected these funds yet to pay off some of its debts?

Normally when a WU petition is made public knowledge, a bank will freeze accounts, hence the requirement for a validation order. 

The validation order probably came after the direct debit date mandates so didn’t cover them. It may also be that KA is asking to be paid that amount himself.

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I think we already discussed it being the credit company's money rather than the club's. The question "Why hasn't someone collected the DDs?" still applies though. 

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1 hour ago, Spider said:

Based on the more sage opinions there are, I’d say there’s only a 5% chance we’ll liquidate.

there are clearly interested parties who have managed to keep their dealings private (who is making the Twitter heroes really upset).

add into this that a football club that on its day can attract almost 30,000 supporters and I just cannot see a fix not being found.

youre not telling me a club suddenly playing in the northern leagues will be allowed to do so if thousands of fans are likely to show up. Think about it.

it won’t be pleasant, but we’re not going under. Just down.

 

Exactly my thoughts. 3k Bolton turning up at Salford City would make things interesting to the locals and plod. 

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8 hours ago, Sluffy said:

What we've learned today.

Depends on what you believe on the internet but let us start with what we think we know -

Basran Consortium calls off deal
BBC Radio Manchester Sports reports that Forest Green owner Vince commences court action against us.
HMRC winder due on Wednesday - amount outstanding £1.2 million.
No change of ownership whilst Winder on going.
Only payment of Winder can be made by  owners of the club which still in the hands of KA (Inner Circle Investments) even though he has defaulted on Eddie Davies personal loan to him for which he put up as collateral the ownership shares.
Whatever happens KA owes Eddie Davies/Moonshine circa £8 million.
There appears to be something like £16m of secured creditors that are owed money from the club (James, Warburton, KA(?), the bank, others?) and something like £13 million of unsecured (HMRC, police, Business Rates, Heathcote, etc).
The EFL through its 'golden share' in all clubs in the league will not permit Administration taking place without the means ALL secured creditors being paid in full and all unsecured creditors paid a minimum of 25% - so whoever wants Administration needs to have something like £20 million, plus £1.5 million per month to finance the club during Admin.  KA hasn't got anything like that.  
Basran was trying to but the club by funding the money KA needs to clear off the lien on the shares (about £8 million) and come to deals with all the other creditors - seems they couldn't find enough to afford that (at least at this stage of the saga), even with James (and probably Warburton) not pushing for their secured debts.
If nothing changes at the £1.2m HMRC Winder isn't paid on Wednesday - it's liquidation.

However it needn't end that way - and almost certainly won't.

It is more likely that someone will buy the debt owed by KA to Eddie from Moonshift (probably for much less than the £8 million outstanding.  This will mean KA will still need to find £8 million to pay the new owner of his debt (as that amount won't change).  This will probably be done on the day before or even the morning of, the Winder.
A formal bid for the company will then be announced and thus delay the Winder.
Finally a formal notification to KA that in 14 days his shares will be redeemed due to default on the loan.
I do have one or two loose ends I can't quite tie up about this but no doubt things will be made clearer in due course - see my previous post above.

I think that is how I've understood correctly most of what I've read.

Onwards and upwards still.

I have an accumulation of questions but lets just stick to one for now, Sluffy. Where is the evidence that the £5m Moonshift advance has become £8m and thereby become a bigger creditor than PBP's £5.5m? You may have noticed that, whenever possible, I aim to be accurate.

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2 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

I have an accumulation of questions but lets just stick to one for now, Sluffy. Where is the evidence that the £5m Moonshift advance has become £8m and thereby become a bigger creditor than PBP's £5.5m? You may have noticed that, whenever possible, I aim to be accurate.

On this point, I believe the discrepancy arises from the following: 

The actual debenture amount is the £5M as recorded at companies house. 

The amount owed by KA to Moonshift/Trustees is closer to £8M due to loans made prior to the £5M that were designated to be anonymous. I believe that these are secured personally against KA.

 

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1 minute ago, Howardroark said:

On this point, I believe the discrepancy arises from the following: 

The actual debenture amount is the £5M as recorded at companies house. 

The amount owed by KA to Moonshift/Trustees is closer to £8M due to loans made prior to the £5M that were designated to be anonymous. I believe that these are secured personally against KA.

 

Is this a leak? If not, where is the evidence? When were these additional loans  allegedly made and why were they not repaid out of the Madine proceeds?

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3 minutes ago, Chris Custodiet said:

Is this a leak? If not, where is the evidence? When were these additional loans  allegedly made and why were they not repaid out of the Madine proceeds?

Nothing to leak, known within the club, post- blu marble & that would suggest Ken personally profited from Madine; the loan was to him, not the club.

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1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Ken maxed out one credit card then applied for another, and maybe another....

Not too far from the truth, in essence.

Question is does he really want stack his cards?

Big gamble on his part... 

He is at risk of financially ruining himself and folk continue to give him stick.

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6 minutes ago, HomerJay said:

Not too far from the truth, in essence.

Question is does he really want stack his cards?

Big gamble on his part... 

He is at risk of financially ruining himself and folk continue to give him stick.

If he wasn't able to keep the wolf from the door (for whatever reason) then for me he should have admitted it long ago, and gone down the administration route.

We know how unpalatable that would have been, but now it's come to this.

Instead, on the face of it, he's ballooned his way along a downward spiral, continually knocking on Ed's door for help.

Not sure what will be revealed in the months and years to come, hopefully it will just be a lack of competence at running a football club and nothing more sinister.

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