Barnsley (A)

[desperado]

You see, I don’t view it as an effort, attitude, application problem. Not under SS anyway, maybe it ended that way under IE. 

That’s the first indication under SS of complete and utter under-performance, without there being the other qualities needed to scrap out a 1-0 win.

I think there’s other things more at play to explain away Saturday; players coming back in who aren’t up to speed, injuries, players not consistent enough to perform Tue/Fri, mental fatigue/or permanent mental frailties but more pertinent IMO they are largely average L1 players (who show flashes occasionally of being better) who fall into performances like that. Regularly under Evatt, less so under SS.

Some of them (sometimes I think quite a lot them) under a different manager now, with some key summer signings that compliment them rather than more of the same, can perform to a top L1 level possibly even championship.

So this idea of fucking all the players off, castigating them for an attitude/effort issue (which I don’t think it is) would be an over-reaction and is providing a platform for a frustrated fan base to start turning their anger and abuse to players who currently, regardless of any attitude/effort, just aren’t good enough as a collective.

If this now turns into booing them onto the pitch, you’re not fit to wear the shirt, fuck off out of our club, you set of lazy batards etc. then I’ll be arguing with a few around me as it serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2025 by desperado

[Tonge moor green jacket]

We've not played "well" for weeks, with the exception of Rotherham- finishing apart.

Failure to even compete, is a failure of attitude. Not necessarily bad per se, but one of frailty in confidence.

When you're on song, the adrenaline is flowing in a controlled manner, and you can get more out of yourself. 

When confidence is low, even when you're giving it your best, the output just isn't as high.

Whatever the root cause of it is, SS has to sort it one way or the other.

[Bertie]

1 hour ago, desperado said:

If this now turns into booing them onto the pitch, you’re not fit to wear the shirt, fuck off out of our club, you set of lazy batards etc. then I’ll be arguing with a few around me as it serves no purpose whatsoever.

 

 

Ditto. I was more angry at some of these chants/comments on Saturday than with what I was seeing on the pitch.

[Tombwfc]

I would guess all of our players fancy themselves as being good enough to play at a higher level. None of them have played up to that and to a man they've all been outperformed by plenty of lads in this league with lesser reputations earning fractions of what they're earning.

Add in to that that they've been called out publicly by two different managers now on half a dozen occasions. And often for the exact same reasons. Lack of urgency, lack of intensity, outrun, outbattled, mentally weak, not training properly. Those aren't ability issues.

The fans backing has been outstanding throughout all of this. If some now want to express that frustration then so be it. They deserve better.

Will it make a difference? No. But neither will politely clapping them round the stadium and off to their big night out after a 9th placed finish. If people pay their money, if they're not breaking any laws they can do what they want.

[desperado]

14 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

If people pay their money, if they're not breaking any laws they can do what they want.

Where you there Saturday?

Of course, if you weren’t you’ll assume I’m taking on superstar fan status, which seems to be your go to, if you can’t answer questions directly.

But more of that nonsense, ( didn’t hear of anyone being arrested for breaking the law) in-fighting, abuse, in front of kids on their first away day is a Carte Blanche for the dickheads.

Despite our disagreements on here, I didn’t think you were one of them. I thought you were ok. 

”Not breaking any laws, do what you want”….

…I may have got you wrong 

[gonzo]

I don't think it's lack of effort or not caring. 

They just don't have that collective bit of oomph for want of a better word.

They just don't have that little something special that comes from deep within to dig deep and handle a bit of pressure. 

You can be the best technical golfer on the planet but if your head goes on the 18th green then you may as well be an also-ran.

That Humphries cock on Sat isn't technically better than Collins, never in a million years, but he wanted it more on sat. 

Its up to the recruitment to find these types of character instead of reading XG and pressing stats.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

20 minutes ago, gonzo said:

I don't think it's lack of effort or not caring. 

They just don't have that collective bit of oomph for want of a better word.

They just don't have that little something special that comes from deep within to dig deep and handle a bit of pressure. 

You can be the best technical golfer on the planet but if your head goes on the 18th green then you may as well be an also-ran.

That Humphries cock on Sat isn't technically better than Collins, never in a million years, but he wanted it more on sat. 

Its up to the recruitment to find these types of character instead of reading XG and pressing stats.

Aye.

It's weird. 

Bring on the holidays. 

[desperado]

15 minutes ago, gonzo said:

I don't think it's lack of effort or not caring. 

They just don't have that collective bit of oomph for want of a better word.

They just don't have that little something special that comes from deep within to dig deep and handle a bit of pressure. 

You can be the best technical golfer on the planet but if your head goes on the 18th green then you may as well be an also-ran.

That Humphries cock on Sat isn't technically better than Collins, never in a million years, but he wanted it more on sat. 

Its up to the recruitment to find these types of character instead of reading XG and pressing stats.

Now that line of thinking has merit.

I definitely agree, we have got too many players of the same Ilk.

On occasions, collectively, it manifests itself into a performance like we saw Saturday.

Like you I don’t think it’s a lack of effort or not caring. We would have seen more of that since SS took over if that was the case. 

[Tombwfc]

32 minutes ago, desperado said:

Where you there Saturday?

Of course, if you weren’t you’ll assume I’m taking on superstar fan status, which seems to be your go to, if you can’t answer questions directly.

But more of that nonsense, ( didn’t hear of anyone being arrested for breaking the law) in-fighting, abuse, in front of kids on their first away day is a Carte Blanche for the dickheads.

Despite our disagreements on here, I didn’t think you were one of them. I thought you were ok. 

”Not breaking any laws, do what you want”….

…I may have got you wrong 

 

I didn't go on Saturday.

That second paragraph is bizarre.

Fighting and abuse are both generally considered against the law. Whether you get arrested for it is a separate issue.

"booing them onto the pitch, you’re not fit to wear the shirt, fuck off out of our club, you set of lazy batards etc." is fairly standard for every away match ever. If it's fine for it be directed at opposition players, then there's no need for pearl clutching if it's directed at our own. It's all the same words.

[Rizlar]

9 minutes ago, desperado said:

Now that line of thinking has merit.

I definitely agree, we have got too many players of the same Ilk.

On occasions, collectively, it manifests itself into a performance like we saw Saturday.

Like you I don’t think it’s a lack of effort or not caring. We would have seen more of that since SS took over if that was the case. 

This is what puzzles me is this down to the recruitment and the stats they look at because if it is this is not working because every player we sign doesn’t seem to have the gonads for a battle. 
Going back to a clearout I do think it’s time to say goodbye to players who have been here a while because they are part of the problem. 

[desperado]

21 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

I didn't go on Saturday.

That second paragraph is bizarre.

Fighting and abuse are both generally considered against the law. Whether you get arrested for it is a separate issue.

"booing them onto the pitch, you’re not fit to wear the shirt, fuck off out of our club, you set of lazy batards etc." is fairly standard for every away match ever. If it's fine for it be directed at opposition players, then there's no need for pearl clutching if it's directed at our own. It's all the same words.

The second paragraph isn’t bizarre if you go back to our chats.

Last week you said “your opinion of this team is that the players are all quality.” 

When I asked where have I said this?

You went on to talk some bollocks about me “conflating top fan bollocks with what's going on on the pitch.”

If you’d been there Saturday, maybe you’d have a different perspective like I have and @Bertie agreed with.

That level of abuse, which plenty of kids witnessed was disproportionate and uncalled for.

Seems a bit rich that you’re giving it the big OK from your armchair when you weren’t even there. “Top fan bollocks banter” (your words 😊)

 

[bolton va va]

47 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

I didn't go on Saturday.

That second paragraph is bizarre.

Fighting and abuse are both generally considered against the law. Whether you get arrested for it is a separate issue.

"booing them onto the pitch, you’re not fit to wear the shirt, fuck off out of our club, you set of lazy batards etc." is fairly standard for every away match ever. If it's fine for it be directed at opposition players, then there's no need for pearl clutching if it's directed at our own. It's all the same words.

If you think that abusing your own players is exactly the same as abuse aimed towards opposition players, it may be that supporting a football team isn't really for you.

[ianofcleveleys]

There are some other well qualified and experienced coaches on here who might have a view, but from my coaches perspective there are a couple of things going on:

1) as has been said by many, too much of the squad being recruited on data and stats, not on what they can bring / add in physicality and mentality terms, the result being a squad that's collectively flaky, easily blown off course and bullied, 2) they do care in their own way, do put effort in and want to do well, but within the bounds of what effort means and feels like to them on any given day, or the culture around them is ok with seeing from them. That's very evidently different to many other players they'll face up to on any given matchday in League 1, regardless of how talented those other players may be.

The issue is that most squads can carry one or two of that talented but flaky ilk if the rest have that stronger, more raw-boned mindset where they'll chase every lost cause, hammer into tackles, block shots and crosses and be ok with getting hurt if it means scoring or preventing a goal.

Our squad has too many players whose natural instinct isn't to throw themselves out to stop a cross or block a shot, to harass and hassle an opponent relentlessly, put their head in where feet might be. and only one or two, at least in my eyes, who will willingly and instinctively do that stuff 

There are a good few too many who also seem to come across as easily scared, of the opponents, the opposing fans (see Cambridge away) or even our own fans. 

Said on the Today's Games thread yesterday, what I'd want my team to look like is Newcastle, what it does look like is Man U.

Having said all of that, I won't be letting them know volubly what I think of them till I've given them every chance again on Fri. If they show a ton more than on Sat and don't get the breaks, fine, no problem, if they don't and roll over again they ought to be prepared to face a reasonable degree of music.

 

Edited April 14, 2025 by ianofcleveleys

[Zico]

43 minutes ago, Rizlar said:

Going back to a clearout I do think it’s time to say goodbye to players who have been here a while because they are part of the problem. 

I don't think there'll be the clear out folk are expecting or seemingly wanting

the following are the ones who's contract expires this summer:

Etete / Murphy / Matete - not coming back either I wouldn't have thought
Santos - be amazed if he stays
Baxter - I'll think he'll stay if offered a new contract and don't see why we wouldn't offer him one
Jones - doubt he'll stay
Coleman - doubt he'll be offered a new one

and that's it

all the rest, unless someone comes in, are staying,  but no idea who if anyone is being put on the transfer list so to speak


I see no reason to try and get rid of:

Southwood
Hutchinson
Johnston
Cogley
Tutu
Forrester 
Toal
Forino
Conway
Thomason
Sheehan
Morley
Collins
McAtee

I wouldn't be bothered if these left but woudln't be surprised if no one comes in for them:

Randall
Sharples-Ahmed
Schon
Dempsey
Lolos
Gomes
Nlundulu
Matheson
Adeboyejo

 

honestly not expecting wholesale changes

a new striker please

and midfield cunt / bastard

but SS is going to have to find a way to shift contracted players on if he's to reshape the squad

[desperado]

14 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

There are some other well qualified and experienced coaches on here who might have a view, but from my coaches perspective there are a couple of things going on:

1) as has been said by many, too much of the squad being recruited on data and stats, not on what they can bring / add in mentality terms, the result being a squad that's collectively flaky, easily blown off course and bullied, 2) they do care in their own way, do put effort in and want to do well, but within the bounds of what effort means and feels like to them on any given day, or the culture around them is ok with seeing from them. That's very evidently different to many other players they'll face up to on any given matchday in League 1, regardless of how talented those other players may be.

The issue is that most squads can carry one or two of that talented but flaky ilk if the rest have that stronger, more raw-boned mindset where they'll chase every lost cause, hammer into tackles, block shots and crosses and be ok with getting hurt if it means scoring or preventing a goal.

Our squad is hopelessly imbalanced in that we have too many players whose natural instinct isn't to throw themselves out to stop a cross or block a shot, to harass and hassle an opponent relentlessly, put their head in where feet might be. and only one or two, at least in my eyes, who have that stronger mindset and will willingly and instinctively do that stuff 

There are a good few too many who also come across as easily scared, of the opponents, the opposing fans (see Cambridge away) or even our own fans. 

Said on the Today's Games thread yesterday, what I want my team to look like is Newcastle, what it does look like is Man U.

Having said all of that, I won't be letting them know volubly what I think of them till I've given them every chance again on Fri. If they show a ton more than on Sat and don't get the breaks, fine, no problem, if they don't and roll over again they ought to be prepared to face a reasonable degree of music.

 

Good post. 

Think there’s a common agreement that mentality, inconsistencies and imbalance are all issues that need addressing.

I also think your view on expressing discontent is fair.

No one’s saying we sit there happy clapping the crap we saw Saturday. 

But I’m not sure why there’s a debate going on around vocally getting a bit frustrated and overstepping the mark with some of the abuse and in-fighting the abuse caused on Saturday 

[Rizlar]

18 minutes ago, Zico said:

I don't think there'll be the clear out folk are expecting or seemingly wanting

the following are the ones who's contract expires this summer:

Etete / Murphy / Matete - not coming back either I wouldn't have thought
Santos - be amazed if he stays
Baxter - I'll think he'll stay if offered a new contract and don't see why we wouldn't offer him one
Jones - doubt he'll stay
Coleman - doubt he'll be offered a new one

and that's it

all the rest, unless someone comes in, are staying,  but no idea who if anyone is being put on the transfer list so to speak


I see no reason to try and get rid of:

Southwood
Hutchinson
Johnston
Cogley
Tutu
Forrester 
Toal
Forino
Conway
Thomason
Sheehan
Morley
Collins
McAtee

I wouldn't be bothered if these left but woudln't be surprised if no one comes in for them:

Randall
Sharples-Ahmed
Schon
Dempsey
Lolos
Gomes
Nlundulu
Matheson
Adeboyejo

 

honestly not expecting wholesale changes

a new striker please

and midfield cunt / bastard

but SS is going to have to find a way to shift contracted players on if he's to reshape the squad

You are probably right cannot see many bids for contracted players unfortunately . 

[desperado]

31 minutes ago, Zico said:

I don't think there'll be the clear out folk are expecting or seemingly wanting

the following are the ones who's contract expires this summer:

Etete / Murphy / Matete - not coming back either I wouldn't have thought
Santos - be amazed if he stays
Baxter - I'll think he'll stay if offered a new contract and don't see why we wouldn't offer him one
Jones - doubt he'll stay
Coleman - doubt he'll be offered a new one

and that's it

all the rest, unless someone comes in, are staying,  but no idea who if anyone is being put on the transfer list so to speak


I see no reason to try and get rid of:

Southwood
Hutchinson
Johnston
Cogley
Tutu
Forrester 
Toal
Forino
Conway
Thomason
Sheehan
Morley
Collins
McAtee

I wouldn't be bothered if these left but woudln't be surprised if no one comes in for them:

Randall
Sharples-Ahmed
Schon
Dempsey
Lolos
Gomes
Nlundulu
Matheson
Adeboyejo

 

honestly not expecting wholesale changes

a new striker please

and midfield cunt / bastard

but SS is going to have to find a way to shift contracted players on if he's to reshape the squad

It’s good to see it set out like that.

And I agree with you I don’t think there will be (or needs to be) a wholesale clear out

From your not bothered list I’d also throw in Dempsey and Schon to stay, especially if we are in L1 

Edited April 14, 2025 by desperado

[gonzo]

1 minute ago, desperado said:

It’s good to see it set out like that.

And I agree with you I don’t think there will be (or needs to be) a wholesale clear out

From your not bothered list I’d also throw in Dempsey and Schon to stay, especially if we are in L1 

Think they'd be my only 2 I'd disagree with.

 

[dusan nikolic]

2 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Think they'd be my only 2 I'd disagree with.

 

Yep a a pretty sound list , although McAtee is another i'm not fussed either way .

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

I'm not really sure what Schon does well

[freds dad]

Just now, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I'm not really sure what Schon does well

Gets booked.

[ianofcleveleys]

47 minutes ago, Zico said:

I don't think there'll be the clear out folk are expecting or seemingly wanting

the following are the ones who's contract expires this summer:

Etete / Murphy / Matete - not coming back either I wouldn't have thought
Santos - be amazed if he stays
Baxter - I'll think he'll stay if offered a new contract and don't see why we wouldn't offer him one
Jones - doubt he'll stay
Coleman - doubt he'll be offered a new one

and that's it

all the rest, unless someone comes in, are staying,  but no idea who if anyone is being put on the transfer list so to speak


I see no reason to try and get rid of:

Southwood
Hutchinson
Johnston
Cogley
Tutu
Forrester 
Toal
Forino
Conway
Thomason
Sheehan
Morley
Collins
McAtee

I wouldn't be bothered if these left but woudln't be surprised if no one comes in for them:

Randall
Sharples-Ahmed
Schon
Dempsey
Lolos
Gomes
Nlundulu
Matheson
Adeboyejo

 

honestly not expecting wholesale changes

a new striker please

and midfield cunt / bastard

but SS is going to have to find a way to shift contracted players on if he's to reshape the squad

Set out like that it shows the limits of SS's wriggle room, essentially a 1-11 plus a bench worth that he's stuck with unless club can grease the wheels on some loans or, assuming the player's ok with moving to get game time, accept some pretty minimal fees. 

In addition to those you've put on the departure list I wouldn't lose sleep over Tutu going, fragile physically and little end product. If SS thinks of going to a back 4 Cogley might struggle to get a shirt, not a good enough defender. Johnston's a maybe, struggled of late but benefit of the doubt is based on him having had a full season out then playing nearly every game this time round, more entitled than a few to be hitting the wall.

Of those contracted that might attract attention I think (controversially maybe) Sheehan and possibly Morley could go, to a middling / lower end Champ club or one of the promoted ones. I don't see any of the others being of interest.

[frank_spencer]

As crap as Randall has been he's going nowhere after the club spent a decent wedge on him in Jan.

Biggest need for me and it's been the same for the past 2yrs is a proper number 9. Doesn't need to be 'Prime Drogba' but a league 1 Emile Healey who can do the physical stuff for Collins/McAtee would be great

[Rizlar]

Every player will have a price problem is who will want them. 

[Zico]

32 minutes ago, desperado said:

It’s good to see it set out like that.

And I agree with you I don’t think there will be (or needs to be) a wholesale clear out

From your not bothered list I’d also throw in Dempsey and Schon to stay, especially if we are in L1 

 

30 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Think they'd be my only 2 I'd disagree with.

 

I was in two minds about them, I'd say of that second list they are two that I'd not be disspointed if they were still here and getting game time next season

Dempsey was great for that spell he was available earlier this season, but he's just too injury prone and can't be relied upon

Schon, I wanted to like him earlier this season but bar effort and desire I'm not sure what he brings that makes us better

happy enough for him to stay but SS doesn't seem to fancy him so will be another season on the fringes I'd have thought, hence not bothered if he left - but I don't think he'll leave anyway