Bradford Away - 2nd Leg Thursday 14th May

[gonzo]

2 hours ago, Ani said:

People did not get tickets if they did there won’t be a debate. 

I missed out on all three of the ones you mention. Despite doing double figures in away games most seasons.

If you're doing double figures for away games surely you should be getting an away ST?

Edited 17 hours ago by gonzo
Forgot it includes Papa John's shite for returns

[barrycowdrill]

1 minute ago, Traf said:

Like now? 😉 

It’s a game of chance though now isn’t it. Wouldn’t be with points system until the last few remaining. It’s just guess work of course but can only really be the justification for not applying a points based approach. 
 

easy to migrate away ST holders to the top of any points based system then look at say the last 2 years worth of purchases by client ref. Operationally it isn’t a big job so there’s a fundamental reason why it’s not been adopted 

[Traf]

Just now, barrycowdrill said:

It’s a game of chance though now isn’t it. Wouldn’t be with points system until the last few remaining. It’s just guess work of course but can only really be the justification for not applying a points based approach. 
 

easy to migrate away ST holders to the top of any points based system then look at say the last 2 years worth of purchases by client ref. Operationally it isn’t a big job so there’s a fundamental reason why it’s not been adopted 

There is no right answer, it's good to have a healthy debate about it, but whichever method they go with, folk won't be happy, so they might as well stick with the current method.

[barrycowdrill]

1 minute ago, Traf said:

There is no right answer, it's good to have a healthy debate about it, but whichever method they go with, folk won't be happy, so they might as well stick with the current method.

I think it could come in if we went up as generally bigger allocations. Also if we weren’t doing as well, demand would probably decrease. Thus increasing the chances for people further down the points system 

[Ani]

1 hour ago, gonzo said:

If you're doing double figures for away games surely you should be getting an away ST?

23 away games in the league, so we do about half, so even before cup games it is not worth it. 
 

There are five of us and and me and my mate done about 11, his eldest stayed in Oz after the ashes and my step lad has a baby coming so has missed more, so would still have some scrambling. 

[Tombwfc]

3 hours ago, Ani said:

People did not get tickets if they did there won’t be a debate. 

I missed out on all three of the ones you mention. Despite doing double figures in away games most seasons.

 

That's obviously shit luck and unfortunate. As I say I'd not be outraged if we had a points system, but I suspect it'll take some extraordinary event to make it happen. West Ham got a 6k allocation the other year when they reached the Conference Final, imagine that going fastest finger first.

Not to beat a point from early in the thread to death... but we've sold 18k home tickets, Bradford have sold 17k (albeit they've got a lot more time) but have fans camping out to come here. The rush to give the minimum allocation possible in games like this only hurts fans who are among most desperate to be there.

[Ani]

9 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

That's obviously shit luck and unfortunate. As I say I'd not be outraged if we had a points system, but I suspect it'll take some extraordinary event to make it happen. West Ham got a 6k allocation the other year when they reached the Conference Final, imagine that going fastest finger first.

Not to beat a point from early in the thread to death... but we've sold 18k home tickets, Bradford have sold 17k (albeit they've got a lot more time) but have fans camping out to come here. The rush to give the minimum allocation possible in games like this only hurts fans who are among most desperate to be there.

But that point you are ‘beating’ is that the crowd do not make any difference that I do not agree with.

SJM in his interview says how much it makes, so I will take his opinion as more likely to be correct than yours. 

[Stig]

50 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

That's obviously shit luck and unfortunate. As I say I'd not be outraged if we had a points system, but I suspect it'll take some extraordinary event to make it happen. West Ham got a 6k allocation the other year when they reached the Conference Final, imagine that going fastest finger first.

Not to beat a point from early in the thread to death... but we've sold 18k home tickets, Bradford have sold 17k (albeit they've got a lot more time) but have fans camping out to come here. The rush to give the minimum allocation possible in games like this only hurts fans who are among most desperate to be there.

Football clubs are collectively shooting themselves in the foot here for marginal gains. Not just us but the desire to limit the opposition to 2k fans in playoff games is crazy. 

We've got one of the best grounds for negotiating this also whereas others might be tied to old architecture,but we could negotiate:

-top tier south only - 2k

-half top south, half bottom south - 2.7k

-full bottom tier south - 3k

-full top tier south and half bottom tier- 3.4k

- full south - 5k

Would have like to have seen us negotiate the half and half south personally as would have given Bradford (and us) 700 more seats while not impacting home atmosphere. In fact, probably improving it as it's not one bank of away support and we can have Bolton fans all around them 

Edited 14 hours ago by Stig

[Ani]

4 minutes ago, Stig said:

Football clubs are collectively shooting themselves in the foot here for marginal gains. Not just us but the desire to limit the opposition to 2k fans in playoff games is crazy. 

We've got one of the best grounds for negotiating this also whereas others might be tied to old architecture,but we could negotiate:

-top tier south only - 2k

-half top south, half bottom south - 2.7k

-full bottom tier south - 3k

-full top tier south and half bottom tier- 3.4k

- full south - 5k

Would have like to have seen us negotiate the half and half south personally as would have given Bradford (and us 700) more seats while not impacting home atmosphere. In fact, probably improving it as it's not one bank of away support and we can have Bolton fans all around them 

So you are giving the away team 700 extra tickets at £15 average per ticket. That is £10500. Half that money goes to the EFL, leaves £5250. Of which we get 25% as do the other 3 teams in the play offs. So we make £1300. 
You say marginal gain, but no club is going to turn down the slightest marginal gain for £1300. Tbf you can double that if we make same from away game. But is hardly shooting yourself in the foot. 

[Stig]

11 minutes ago, Ani said:

So you are giving the away team 700 extra tickets at £15 average per ticket. That is £10500. Half that money goes to the EFL, leaves £5250. Of which we get 25% as do the other 3 teams in the play offs. So we make £1300. 
You say marginal gain, but no club is going to turn down the slightest marginal gain for £1300. Tbf you can double that if we make same from away game. But is hardly shooting yourself in the foot. 

True. Not shooting themselves in the foot. Rather, just forgetting who the customer is.

[Tombwfc]

28 minutes ago, Ani said:

But that point you are ‘beating’ is that the crowd do not make any difference that I do not agree with.

SJM in his interview says how much it makes, so I will take his opinion as more likely to be correct than yours. 

 

Happy for you (or SJM) to show the correlation between our big away followings and good results.

700 extra tickets for both sides wouldn't have made a single bit of difference to the outcome of the tie. But regardless, talk about totally missing the point of football. Fans (like yourself!) getting tickets for the biggest games of the season > the club making £1300 > totally spurious and unprovable 'marginal gains'.

[desperado]

3 hours ago, barrycowdrill said:

The problem with a points based system is to a certain degree it becomes quite elitist. The same names a faces end up getting tickets for the majority of away games and the rest slowly but surely getting access / points here and there. Similar to how the England away process works. My assumption is the club don’t want to go down that route as many fans would then become disenchanted with away games as there is little hope of getting tickets. Particularly at this level 

I think they’re quite content with demand outweighing supply at the minute as it keeps people “engaged” no matter how many times you miss out and complain, you’ll still try again the next time 

I think for the really top teams with a massive fanbase this becomes an issue.

But for us, this year especially, if people want to do away games, there’s plenty of opportunity, plenty of away allocations that haven’t sold out, ones where if you’re a season ticket holder you are not scrambling around to find a ticket. You could, theoretically have loads of different faces at every away game. 

Much different to the really big clubs/nations with huge followings.

It would be an incentive too with a rewards system getting you in with a shout of these high demand play-off games.

Instead you’ve got 1000’s, instead of a few hundred going for the same tickets, because this flawed system allows it.

You wouldn’t be turning off supporters for not being able to access away games, they can do loads if they want to with BWFC. It would just prevent them having equal priority for these massive games. 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by desperado

[ianofcleveleys]

2 hours ago, barrycowdrill said:

I think it could come in if we went up as generally bigger allocations. Also if we weren’t doing as well, demand would probably decrease. Thus increasing the chances for people further down the points system 

If, halfway through the season in the Championship, we're thrashing about in the bottom six and away at somewhere like Middlesbrough we wont need a points system.

So many games in that league are at shit KO times and on Sky Sports + unless we really surprise ourselves and everyone with how we do, we wont be selling those away ends out in 20 minutes

[Johnnyrotten]

15 minutes ago, Stig said:

True. Not shooting themselves in the foot. Rather, just forgetting who the customer is.

I'm also surprised EFL.com don't have a say in wanting their product to come across in all its glory.  They'd want to see two games with stadiums packed out, and there could have easily been 25k on at both games if more away fans had been allowed.

Folk that aren't invested in a game will quickly turn off when they see a half empty stand or 2, if I was the EFL or Sky I'd want a good reason for the restricted attendance.

[Ani]

2 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

Happy for you (or SJM) to show the correlation between our big away followings and good results.

700 extra tickets for both sides wouldn't have made a single bit of difference to the outcome of the tie. But regardless, talk about totally missing the point of football. Fans (like yourself!) getting tickets for the biggest games of the season > the club making £1300 > totally spurious and unprovable 'marginal gains'.

Show me something that proves it does not. A bloke who has played in these games has explicitly said that it does.  
 

You can shove the idealistic jumpers for goalposts attitude. Fans have been customers ever since Sky started pumping millions and billions into the game. The idea that for this one game a season we are going to revert to a fan centric approach to any aspect of the play offs, which are 100% a commercial idea with games kicking off at times to suit the schedules. They have not even announced the time the final will kick off till the TV people tell them, is just bollocks. 
 

 

You have stated on here today that no one who logged at 10 would have missed tickets despite people posting they have. You are constantly wrong. 

[Ani]

3 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

I'm also surprised EFL.com don't have a say in wanting their product to come across in all its glory.  They'd want to see two games with stadiums packed out, and there could have easily been 25k on at both games if more away fans had been allowed.

Folk that aren't invested in a game will quickly turn off when they see a half empty stand or 2, if I was the EFL or Sky I'd want a good reason for the restricted attendance.

The whole thing is driven by the EFL rule that it is 10% or 2100 which is the minimum. 

[Johnnyrotten]

6 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

If, halfway through the season in the Championship, we're thrashing about in the bottom six and away at somewhere like Middlesbrough we wont need a points system.

So many games in that league are at shit KO times and on Sky Sports + unless we really surprise ourselves and everyone with how we do, we wont be selling those away ends out in 20 minutes

Taking Middlesboro as an example, one of those games we traditionally take a poor following to (and always seem to lose apart from Gavin McCann day).

When its Lincoln, about same distance, there's big demand (and not just this season).

It has a different feel to it for some reason, hopefully that's a conversation to be had in a few weeks.

[ianofcleveleys]

Just now, Johnnyrotten said:

Taking Middlesboro as an example, one of those games we traditionally take a poor following to (and always seem to lose apart from Gavin McCann day).

When its Lincoln, about same distance, there's big demand (and not just this season).

It has a different feel to it for some reason, hopefully that's a conversation to be had in a few weeks.

Absolutely, I hope its a conversation we need to be having 👍

[Ani]

17 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

If, halfway through the season in the Championship, we're thrashing about in the bottom six and away at somewhere like Middlesbrough we wont need a points system.

So many games in that league are at shit KO times and on Sky Sports + unless we really surprise ourselves and everyone with how we do, we wont be selling those away ends out in 20 minutes

Ironically if that is the case next season it is the ideal time to launch a priority scheme, so people build up points at a time when you can get a ticket if you want. Then when the tickets are limited the people who turned up week in week out get first dibs. 

[Big E]

3 hours ago, barrycowdrill said:

The problem with a points based system is to a certain degree it becomes quite elitist. The same names a faces end up getting tickets for the majority of away games and the rest slowly but surely getting access / points here and there. Similar to how the England away process works. My assumption is the club don’t want to go down that route as many fans would then become disenchanted with away games as there is little hope of getting tickets. Particularly at this level 

I think they’re quite content with demand outweighing supply at the minute as it keeps people “engaged” no matter how many times you miss out and complain, you’ll still try again the next time 

I think the club don’t give a fuck as they know they will sell so see it as why bother: you could easily make a system that refreshes etc to avoid elitism. 

[Johnnyrotten]

3 minutes ago, Ani said:

The whole thing is driven by the EFL rule that it is 10% or 2100 which is the minimum. 

Yes, its their rules, I suppose they think they are doing away fans a favour by having a minimum 10% or 2k.  I don't know why they don't up it to 10% for any ground that holds over 20k.  If Spurs or West Ham are in the play offs next season (playing us?!), only 2k away fans in a crowd of 60k-ish.  

There was a play off game at MK Dons a couple of years ago when Wycombe were restricted to 2k for the away leg after winning the home leg, and they could hardly be seen on TV up in the gods, its a turn off for neutrals who'd need some persuading to watch that game.

[Tombwfc]

26 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

I'm also surprised EFL.com don't have a say in wanting their product to come across in all its glory.  They'd want to see two games with stadiums packed out, and there could have easily been 25k on at both games if more away fans had been allowed.

Folk that aren't invested in a game will quickly turn off when they see a half empty stand or 2, if I was the EFL or Sky I'd want a good reason for the restricted attendance.

 

There was a Championship playoff the other year (Coventry vs Boro I think) where they gave each other 2k and there were thousands of empty seats. Looked shit on TV for what is one of the EFL's most important fixtures.

Looking it up, neither home side won and Coventry went through in the away leg despite being outnumbered 30k to 2k. So much for those marginal gains.

Edited 13 hours ago by Tombwfc

[desperado]

14 minutes ago, Ani said:

Ironically if that is the case next season it is the ideal time to launch a priority scheme, so people build up points at a time when you can get a ticket if you want. Then when the tickets are limited the people who turned up week in week out get first dibs. 

Exactly.

There will be lots of space and opportunity to do loads next year. Preston, Blackburn, Burnley won’t be hard with big allocations. Bristol, Millwall, Charlton decent allocations down south. 

Then we get Tottenham in a restricted 2k play off allocation - that’s exactly when you should be rewarded for the above!

How could anybody claim that it’s an elitist system because somebody has a deserved priority, when they could have gone to any number of away games in the season? 
 

Edited 13 hours ago by desperado

[Ani]

1 minute ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Yes, its their rules, I suppose they think they are doing away fans a favour by having a minimum 10% or 2k.  I don't know why they don't up it to 10% for any ground that holds over 20k.  If Spurs or West Ham are in the play offs next season (playing us?!), only 2k away fans in a crowd of 60k-ish.  

There was a play off game at MK Dons a couple of years ago when Wycombe were restricted to 2k for the away leg after winning the home leg, and they could hardly be seen on TV up in the gods, its a turn off for neutrals who'd need some persuading to watch that game.

I remember that game , MK also put the away fans into blocks that were seperated. 
 

But let’s be honest there are not 10s of thousands watching that game let alone switching it off. I really do not understand why Sky pay to broadcast so many League 1 and 2 games on the ‘red button’ do they ever publish the viewing numbers ? 

[Johnnyrotten]

1 minute ago, desperado said:

Exactly.

There will lots of space and opportunity to do loads next year. Preston, Blackburn, Burnley won’t be hard with big allocations. Bristol, Millwall, Charlton decent allocations down south. 

Then we get Tottenham in a restricted 2k play off allocation - that’s exactly when you should be rewarded for the above!

How could anybody claim that it’s an elitist system because somebody has a deserved priority, when they could have gone to any number of away games in the season? 
 

I'm agreeing with you by the way - but can't really class PNE and Blackburn with Burnley.  Small away end at Turf Moor, not like the good old days of thousands of us stood on that massive terrace.  I've virtually accepted I probably won't go there again due to demand, it used to be my favourite away game in the 80s/early 90s.