September 13, 201213 yr Difference is, the fans have not tried to to lie, and conspire to make stuff up. The police did. 100% agree. When is it their turn to tell the whole truth? It's easy to use hindsight to say shoulda coulda woulda, so using the same thinking what if syp said 'if the 20000 Liverpool fans had queued up in an orderly single file then this would not have happened'? It's a ridiculous request but it would have prevented the crush outside, the panic, the gate opening, and all the other things the police were 100% shit at dealing with. Those who went to football in that era know what big games were like and the disorder created by some fans. It was the norm so I simply do not believe some Liverpool fans who were there didn't act in the same manner. Did that directly cause deaths, no. The police were responsible for crowd control and got it wrong at every level. Did it contribute to a chain of events that were handled very very badly by the authorites. Yes, on the basis that disorderly crowd behavior was a norm back then, I think it did.
September 13, 201213 yr come on TRAF you bit there pal your in the keep net now Sadly, I don't think they were fishing.
September 13, 201213 yr Did it contribute to a chain of events that were handled very very badly by the authorites. Yes And that, my learned friend, is all we are saying. If that makes my opinion "utterly reprehensible" (that's what vital bolton tweeted to me!"), I can live with that.
September 13, 201213 yr I cant help but think, why did the police go to such lengths to cover up and change all this ?? Would it not have been easier to admit they fucked up ?? Im presuming, its so they could all try and keep their jobs, and it worked. This was at time when Maggie Thatcher was trying to puch ID Cards onto football fans entering football grounds, and with LFC fans getting checks and ticket checks in 88, you do have to wonder why in 89 it was so different. I am not for 1 moment saying that MP's and Police wanted these deaths to happen, but maybe they needed an incedent of sorts, to try and proove their point.
September 13, 201213 yr one person must have said "lets change all the statements so they work in our favour" that person needs to do time inside. whoever it is. surely not all the coppers were bent? were they just being told what to do? Edited September 13, 201213 yr by HomerJay
September 13, 201213 yr Spot on Homer. If you read the report, the decision to amend some of the police statements was taken at a very senior level, at advice from the SYP's solicitors, to deflect the blame away from the Control Centre and the senior officers on that day. What seems to be missing from a lot of the press today was that these amended statements were accepted by both judicial reviews in the years following Hillsborough, one by Lord Justice Taylor and the other by Lord Justice Stuart-Smith. I would question why, if precedent had been set by two previous reviews, this evidence is now being called in to question? It is detailed in the report but nothing has been said about these previous reviews. Like the army, police officers respect the chain of command. Officers who made statements were told to accept the changes made by SYP's solicitors, and as is the way in the police, they did not question the order. I don't for one second think that any serving officer on that day, whos statement was changed, should be disciplined or prosecuted - if you read their statements, they were very honest about the emergency services' lack of response and poor communication during the incident. The people that made these decisions should be brough to justice. This then raises another question that I have yet to see covered. Both Duckinfield and Morley, the Command Control at Hillsborough, have already been prosecuted for negligence on that day and both were found innocent - doesn't this then come under the double jeopardy ruling that people can not be tried for the same crime twice? Successive governments and administrations have had the opportunity to right the wrongs of Hillsborough and they have chosen not to - they should also be brought to justice.
September 13, 201213 yr Imagine the families and the whole moevment would have let this go years ago, and not pushed like they did. What would that say to future Governments, MP's and people in high Police positions ?? That you can cover what you want up, and spin what you like ! Yes i do believe some people are sorry, but they are sorry they have been caught, if anything!
September 13, 201213 yr Andy Burnham gave a cracking speech. What did he do whilst in government? Fuck all, that's what. What a cock.
September 13, 201213 yr The double jeopardy rule ended in 2005. The Court of Appeal can now quash an aquittal when 'new and compelling' evidence is produce.d
September 13, 201213 yr There's an awful lot of sense being talked in this thread and ALL aspects of the debate are being discussed. However, the current public discourse and media coverage seem to obliterate and airbrush the role of some fans in this. By fans I obviously don't mean those who were killed, who were at the front of Leppings Lane having arrived at the ground on time and with tickets. Mad-made catastrophes happen when a series of things happen, always involving incompetence and thoughtlessness. South Yorkshire Police fall in to those categories. Sheffield Wednesday do (though so would most football clubs in the 80s and before), the FA do (and no doubt still do at all kinds of levels!), it turns out that the Ambulance Service hardly covered themselves in glory that day either. But can it not be acknowledged that the behaviour of some of the fans also made a contribution? Yes they were all directed in to the central pens. However, did they have to turn up late and act in a disorderly way outside the stadium instead of queueing properly? To my mind that started the chain of events. Had this not happened the Police wouldn't have had as much opportunity to display their own glaring faults and failings. Why do people who raise these issues suddenly have to be iconoclasts?
September 13, 201213 yr So, who's to blame? South Yorkshire Police West Yorkshire Chief of police South Yorkshire Ambulance Sheffield Wednesday (in Yorkshire) Bit of a theme
September 13, 201213 yr So, who's to blame? In no particular order. The FA, for staging the game at Hillsborough Sheffield Wednesday, for having a shit ground The Police, for opening the wrong gate The Ambulance Service, for not responding quick enough The ticketless Liverpool fans who rushed the open gate. Fans with tickets had no need to rush. Then, after the event a terrible covr up took place by the police.
September 13, 201213 yr Yes Traf! All of the above! And they ALL know they are to blame, admit it or not!
September 13, 201213 yr These are the people that need to be prosecuted: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/main-section/part-1/page-12/ A lot of the unaltered police officer statements can be found at the bottom of this section. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/main-section/part-2/chapter-11/page-1/ I've read quite a few today and most of them are very clear about the high number of ticketless fans - the alterations made to the reports were about the lack of reaction from commanding officers. This is from the report published yesterday by the independent review panel and I can't find anywhere any reference to these parts of the statements being untrue. I just don't understand why this part of it is being overlooked.
September 13, 201213 yr So, who's to blame? South Yorkshire Police West Yorkshire Chief of police South Yorkshire Ambulance Sheffield Wednesday (in Yorkshire) Bit of a theme So, who's to blame? South Yorkshire Police West Yorkshire Chief of police South Yorkshire Ambulance Sheffield Wednesday (in Yorkshire) Bit of a theme what about dolly the sheep she was from Yorkshire
September 13, 201213 yr Now Im not much liked by the clique on this site, but I have to say a lot here cant seem to let go of their anti scouse feelings on this issue. Ive followed bolton since 1971 and in that time I along with hundreds and sometimes over 1000 fellow fans did what a lot of posters here are complaining that scousers did that day. Namely: 1. turning up at matches late and worse for drink 2. being in large mobs that charged and fought opposing ones on terraces. 3. blagged my way into packed stadia with many more bolton - Newcastle away 76 (gallogate end was frighteningly crushed) replay for same tie at elland rd, derby away league cup QF 1977) 4. have been in crushing crowds pushing to get to turnstiles Now that was what happened at lots of games in the 70's and 80s. FACT. But they wasnt the reasons the 96 died that day. So to read on here some sanctimonious bollocks by saintly bolton posters suggesting that scousers doing that contributed and have blood on their hands makes me shake my head and think fuck me, oh but for the grace of god.
September 13, 201213 yr I give up. I just hope the 96 can eventually, one day actually rest in peace. Edited September 13, 201213 yr by HomerJay
September 13, 201213 yr Pissed with no ticket and hear that a gate opens to see my team in an fa cup semi final. I would have done the same thing and would do now.
September 13, 201213 yr I probably would too. Would you feel guilty if 96 people died because you did it though? Or would you blame everyone else for not stopping you do it.
September 13, 201213 yr Now Im not much liked by the clique on this site, but I have to say a lot here cant seem to let go of their anti scouse feelings on this issue. Ive followed bolton since 1971 and in that time I along with hundreds and sometimes over 1000 fellow fans did what a lot of posters here are complaining that scousers did that day. Namely: 1. turning up at matches late and worse for drink 2. being in large mobs that charged and fought opposing ones on terraces. 3. blagged my way into packed stadia with many more bolton - Newcastle away 76 (gallogate end was frighteningly crushed) replay for same tie at elland rd, derby away league cup QF 1977) 4. have been in crushing crowds pushing to get to turnstiles Now that was what happened at lots of games in the 70's and 80s. FACT. But they wasnt the reasons the 96 died that day. So to read on here some sanctimonious bollocks by saintly bolton posters suggesting that scousers doing that contributed and have blood on their hands makes me shake my head and think fuck me, oh but for the grace of god. And had a simialr tragedy happened at one of our games under those circumstances, we'd also have to shoulder some of the blame. Cut out all your pitiful bollocks about "not being part of the clique" : this has fuck all to do with that. A simple yes or no reply will suffice to this question: Do you honestly think that every Liverpool fan at that game that day is blame-free?
September 13, 201213 yr I would also feel like complete shit knowing i was part of it. Police to blame for gate Police to blame for not covering the tunnel The ground was shit But yes I would blame myself for shoving my way in for nout if death was the consequence
September 13, 201213 yr I would also feel like complete shit knowing i was part of it. Police to blame for gate Police to blame for not covering the tunnel The ground was shit But yes I would blame myself for shoving my way in for nout if death was the consequence And that is where we differ from those there that day.
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